NEF SB-2 BBL locked shut

[BritUSMC0321]

Can anyone help with an issue I am having with one of my NEFs?
I own 3 NEF receivers (1x 45/70, 1x .22 Hornet, 1x Survivor with 4 BBLs - All factory fit).
I have never had any issues with the 45/70 or .22 Hornet receivers.

My problem is with the Survivor receiver. When I first purchased the rifle it had a .223 Bull BBL which became sloppy in the receiver after firing. The rifle was sent back to the factory, while it was being repaired NEF fitted an additional .308 BBL. which developed the same problem. While the .308 BBL was being repaired I purchased a 25-06 BBL from NEF. after hunting with the 25-06 BBL for a season the receiver started popping open when fired. The rifle again went back to NEF. this time I had a 22-250 BBL fitted.
At first I had issues with my handloads not chambering correctly (Brand new Winchester brass-All loaded to correct spec). I experimented by full length sizing the new brass, this seemed to help. The rifle shot fine but accuracy was nothing to brag about no matter what load I tried (40-55g bullets, various powders).
After about 40 rounds the BBL locked shut & would not open. I sent the rifle back to NEF & it was returned (very quickly - 3 day turnaround) with a brand new BBL. Everything seemed OK until I fired the weapon, grouping was very erratic & around 1 1/2" at 50 yards (NB; all my other NEFs shoot great).
On the 42nd shot (new brass, light loads 34g RE15) the rifle again locked shut which is the state in which it remains!  

Before I call NEF tech support does anyone have a similar experience or know the reason(s) why I am experiencing these issues (locking up/any known chamber, muzzle crown, rifling issues with the 22-250)?
***Please note > Re; accuracy - the rifle locked up before I could try lighter bullets.

I am an NEF fan, love my other 2 receivers & very impressed with the hunting accuracy I obtain with all but the 22-250. I would just like the Survivor to be more reliable & the 22-250 BBL to shoot at least close to MOA (LOL).

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

MC

[quickdtoo]

Here's my first guess.....Try firing it a few times, it's possible it has a bad firing pin spring or pin and the pin is getting stuck in the primer, maybe it will dislodge the pin.

Tim

[v8r]

I'm with Quick, my .357 when i first bought it 6 years ago would puncture primers,sent it back and they fixed it. Could be the firing pin has punctured the primer enough to lock it shut.Sounds like a very reasonable theory to me anyway.

[gcrank1]

Once you do get it open check the headspace (see the FAQs) and inspect the primer under magnification of the offending cartridge. Is it 'flowing' into the firing pin hole, creating a burr which effectivly locks it in place? It may show a sheared of high spot.
Let us know what you find and we will go from there.

[BritUSMC0321]

Guys,

Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

I tried dry firing the weapon several times to dislodge the firing pin but no luck so far.
The BBL catch lever does not feel like it has any "spring" to it, just a "friction pressure" when I attempt to press it. If that description makes any sense.
The BBL appears to have a slight forward tilt (not squared in the receiver- slight gap at the top of the chamber).
I hope this info is helpful.
I will keep you posted with any updates or at the very least I will post NEF repair departments findings (if any).

Best regards
MC

[wreckhog]

I dunno, it is either the receiver or your handloads. What is the prefix on your receiver?

[quickdtoo]

The BBL catch lever does not feel like it has any "spring" to it, just a "friction pressure" when I attempt to press it. If that description makes any sense.
The BBL appears to have a slight forward tilt (not squared in the receiver- slight gap at the top of the chamber).

MC

That sounds like a broken latch(catch) or a problem with the lever itself. It will likely have to go back to H&R for repair, I'd definitely ask them to cover return shipping when you make arrangements for repair. You may be able to buy a barrel catch(Gunbroker) and repair it yourself, the Perklo trigger info download shows how to R&R the trigger group which includes it if you want to fix it yourself, disassembling it should reveal the problem, removing the two lower pins and trigger guard will release the barrel.

Tim

[BritUSMC0321]

Tim,

Thanks once again.

Re; doing the work myself - I can actually have my company armorer handle it for me if I get a case of the bone head. Also NEF have been great at handling repairs for me in the past & have a UPS label on the way for this case.

Question; Would doing the repair myself cause any possible future factory repair issues?

Re; Wreckhog's questions...

The prefix is NT- I have 4 BBLs for this receiver (.223 bull, .308 bull, 25-06, 22-250), the other 3 calibers shoot/function flawlessly & accurately. (Other NEF calibers I reload are 45/70 & .22 Hornet).

Re; handloads, as I stated earlier the 22-250 is the only barrel I am having this issue with.
Handloads were 34g of Reloder 15 (this is a start load), 55g FMJBT, Winchester primers, new Winchester Brass, neck sized for concentricity (Lee collet die - no apparant issues with expander etc...), Light factory crimp. all cases checked for trim length, OAL = 2.350". If it is an issue with the handloads for this particular chamber my next step would probably be to check the actual chamber dimensions relative to resize specs. Although as mentioned, this occurred with new brass that had the necks touched up.
I had fired 41 rounds of this same load with no signs of any problem prior to the lockup.
Scope was a Leupold Vari-X II set on 6 power, also tried a Unertl Hawk 4x (Both scopes have no issues). NB: Chamber was clean, all NEF SOPs followed as per the FAQs

I am not so concerned about the accuracy as I am sure I can remedy this via checking fit & finding the right load for the BBL.  The other BBLs for this receiver all shoot sub MOA.
I am more concerned about the lockup.

I hope this info helps.
Thanks for the excellent assistance
MC

[quickdtoo]

As long as you don't modify the rifle in any serious manner like a rechamber or intentionally bugger the underlug, it's not going to affect their repair policy, they've even repaired basket cases where the owner disassembled the firearm and couldn't put it back together, sent the pieces in for repair at no charge!! One member sent Ilion his frame and a second hand barrel that he bought, they fitted it for him, charged fitting and return shipping only. If you work on the trigger and it's under their standard minimum pull weight, they will replace parts to get it back to their standard..... at no charge.  As long as the work done privately is reasonably competent, they'll make it right if your armorer can't make the repair.

Tim

[BritUSMC0321]

Tim,

Thanks again.

I guess seeing as NEF are sending the shipping label it would make sense to let them do the work & I guess I can take advantage of the BAP again while they have the rifle  .

I greatly appreciate the help
Cheers
Mark C.

[quickdtoo]

That's the best course of action, but make that to H&R, not NEF which is practically just a memory, you won't see much reference to NEF on the website and the only firearms marked as NEF are the imported repeater shotguns,  and they aren't serviced by H&R, Marlin did repairs on them at New Haven which is closing, so they may be moving service to Ilion or where ever they decide to resume Marlin mfg.....if they do.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/repairs.asp

[BritUSMC0321]

Tim,

Good point re; H&R Vs NEF. In fact the last 2 repairs all the documentation reflected Remington Arms but the repair questionnaire was H&R.

Some updates - I managed to get the barrel off the receiver last night. Here is what I found....
* The case extracted cleanly upon opening the BBL
* The primer was cratered, I compared it to a case that had been fired once with the same load Which showed no signs of pressure. The load with the cratered primer was fireformed/necksized/trimmed/2d firing.
* I checked barrel fit with a .002" feeler guage, checked out good (very tight fit). Also BBL latch showed even wear.
* I tried opening the 22-250 BBL several times & it needed a good strong heave to open. I compared this to my other BBLs for this receiver, they all opened crisply.
* I noticed that the transfer bar on the problem receiver BBL combo was quite sloppy & had a gap of approximately 0.151" compared to approximately 0.075" on my other 2 receivers.
* The BBL release lever definitely feels stodgy compared to the other 2 receivers. However, as I said previously my other BBLs open cleanly.
* The action feels like it is starting to "free up" after repeated openings.

I am still concerned about pressure - my current train of thought is that the tolerances of the new BBL are pretty tight & I may need to try more J&B & a powder that produces less pressure for the next 40-50 shots. Also try some lighter bullets to see if that improves accuracy.

My current dilemma is whether to attempt to shoot it at all or just send it back for Ilion to double check the parts & fit.

Regards
Mark C


 
 

 

[quickdtoo]

Is it possible you loaded a different primer in the problem load?

Tim

[BritUSMC0321]

Re- different primer...

Very astute reasoning but no, I buy my primers in bulk.
That said, the Winchester primers do seem a bit on the soft side. I could try CCI BR primers on a test load & see if that helps. It may be that on the initial firing the brass absorbed part of the pressure whereas on the second (fireformed) firing the pressure had nowhere to go except forward & back.
It's worth a shot (pun intended)  

[gcrank1]

This is probably a good time to revisit the admonitions in the reloading manuals to start low and increase carefully. Any problems in locking up a breech with reloads says that to me.

[BritUSMC0321]

All loads were worked up from the start load (32g) up to a max load of 35.2 with no signs of pressure
The load I am using (34g RE 15) is the start load in the LEE manual.
Sierra show a start load of 32g/Alliant = 33.3g.
Lee & Sierra show a max load of 35.3 (Alliant shows a max load of 37.5 but this is for the 55g VMax)

Where the pressure problems are occurring is with the 2d firing (neck sized/fireformed brass) after showing no signs of pressure on the initial test using unfired brass.
Dropping back down to the 32g start load is certainly the next step.
However, as the general consensus seems to be that 50g or less bullets seem to shoot more accurately out of the Handi 22-250 I will start over with lighter bullets (40 & 50g). 



   

[necchi]

Forgive the newbie loader's observation;

Full size the brass. Handi's aren't like bolt guns. This barrel (in and of itself) might not like fireformed cases.
 And sometimes the obvious is over looked,,clean dry chamber?

[quickdtoo]

I know most H&R barrels are long throated, but  another variable you might want to check is seating depth. I originally loaded up a bunch of 260 Rem loads using Barnes 120gr TTSX loaded just off the lands, or so I thought, shooting them I got some real erratic velocities, sometimes 100fps difference and pressure signs on the loads that were crazy fast. While loading up another batch yesterday I tested a several rounds in the chamber loaded at the same COL and learned that more than a couple of them were loaded into the lands instead of just off the lands, QuickLoad software indicates that pressures will increase by 7200psi when loading into the lands, and apparently my initial measurement wasn't so accurate, and maybe is the reason why Barnes recommends them loaded .030"-.070" off the lands or .050" to start.

Tim 

[BritUSMC0321]

Good point, my OAL for that bullet/powder combo is 2.350". I will pick up a modified case for my OAL guage & see what specs I get in the chamber. When I checked my .223 & .308 I found they were both overbore.

On this barrel (22") Avg muzzle velocity for 34.2g RE 15 is 3517 fps. which is the speed Sierra shows for a 26" BBL.

[gcrank1]

At those kinds of velocities the pressure has to be quite high. I like the Lee collet neck size dies, but used them primarily for cast bullet loads (much lower pressures) to get the ideal bullet to neck fit. FL size dies reduce a neck dia. to hold jacketed bullets properly, not so with lead.
I know some benchrest shooters neck size only, but they often have finely finished chambers, etc. and for most of us mortals FL sizing makes life easier.
BTW, did you run the new brass through the sizer, chamfer/deburr the mouth and check for OAL before loading. I consider new brass a 'starter kit' that needs all that first.
The reloading manuals give data that worked with those specific components, in that specific platform on that day (if, in fact, they tested it, not extrapolated to create data). The variables are infinate, and of more concern the higher the pressures. The results of your load, in your firearm, are more important than just staying within the printed parameters. Problems at the minimum load, for instance, are still problems not to be quickly dismissed.

[Freightman]

At those kinds of velocities the pressure has to be quite high. I like the Lee collet neck size dies, but used them primarily for cast bullet loads (much lower pressures) to get the ideal bullet to neck fit. FL size dies reduce a neck dia. to hold jacketed bullets properly, not so with lead.
I know some benchrest shooters neck size only, but they often have finely finished chambers, etc. and for most of us mortals FL sizing makes life easier.
BTW, did you run the new brass through the sizer, chamfer/deburr the mouth and check for OAL before loading. I consider new brass a 'starter kit' that needs all that first.

+1 on new brass, quite a bit of variances on all I get. I have tried different kinds and none are perfect.

[Mac11700]

At those kinds of velocities the pressure has to be quite high. I like the Lee collet neck size dies, but used them primarily for cast bullet loads (much lower pressures) to get the ideal bullet to neck fit. FL size dies reduce a neck dia. to hold jacketed bullets properly, not so with lead.
I know some benchrest shooters neck size only, but they often have finely finished chambers, etc. and for most of us mortals FL sizing makes life easier.
BTW, did you run the new brass through the sizer, chamfer/deburr the mouth and check for OAL before loading. I consider new brass a 'starter kit' that needs all that first.

+1 on new brass, quite a bit of variances on all I get. I have tried different kinds and none are perfect.

Same here..Which is why I took to weighing all of my brass for all of the calibers..and I agree with gcrank1 on the velocities..they do seem quite high for a 22" barrel..You might have a tight chamber/throated Handi..in which if you do you will have to adjust your loads for it.

If you are going to continue to neck size..mark your chamber top and index all of your cases to that mark...I neck size for mine without any issues doing this..

Mac

[BritUSMC0321]

I've been otherwise disposed since my last post so apologies for the delay.

Thanks for all the input...All excellent points.
I did find that I had to FL size all my brass on the initial loading for this chamber. All brass was also chamfered & trim length checked (some cases also needed trimming).
When the rifle is returned I will have to re-work my loads. As I said previously, the issues only occurred on the 2d load (1st reload - fire-formed cases, trimmed to length etc...). So maybe this particular rifle does only like FL sized loads. ***I did check all of the cases to see if they chambered after neck sizing & noticed that a couple would not allow the bbl to close (these were not reloaded at that time).
A point that I had not mentioned is that I always de-prime using a universal de-capper prior to any resizing.
I neck size using Lee collet dies & trim using a lee trimmer then double check with a digital caliper.

UPDATE - I sent the rifle back to H&R on the 9th.
After my last post I was cleaning the weapon & part of one of the receiver pins fell out (sheared off), the other portion remained in the frame. 

 

[gcrank1]

Dont you just hate it when that happens!?
At least its a no brainer for them that they gotta fix it for free (and I hope you didnt have to pay shipping, if so pursue a reimbursment). Did you ask for trigger work too, they have done so before when a piece is sent in, IF you ask for it.
It should be so much more satisfactory when it comes back.