Author Topic: Antimony and Black Powder (Read 716 times)

Sheriff Bart · « **on:** November 13, 2003, 08:44:58 AM »

I was talking to Doc Carlson the other day and he told me that any lead mix with antimony in it won't shoot as good as a straight lead tin mix when pushed by black powder. He said there was no difference with smokless but black and antimony made the groups open up. I had been using 1 in 40 lead tin for my Black powder loads so I made a comperable alloy with wheel weights instead of tin. Tryed it at 100yds and sure enough the groups( 10 5 shot groups ea. at 100) were on average an inch larger with the antimony mix. Now I need to know why?

Any Ideas?

The Shrink · « **Reply #1 on:** November 14, 2003, 01:49:21 AM »

Sheriff Bart

You are the victum of overgeneralization. In general, antimony hardens lead in the concentration found in wheel weights enough so that they will not bump up in roundball loads and are too hard to load in muzzleloaders in a size that will seal. Thus you get a poor seal in roundball applications.

On the other hand, Black Powder Silouette shooters and winners have used wheel weight bullets with no problem. Thus with a flat base, they bump up adequately when the bullet is a close fit.

I would guess your problem is that by adding antimony you changed the weight and diameter of the bullet. This changes it's characteristics enough that accuracy suffered. It's like changing to a new bullet, you have to start from scratch to see how it will shoot with a variety of loads.

waksupi · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2003, 06:38:45 PM »

It's been a long time since I ran across Doc. I believe I first met him at Larry Twymans' rondezvous back in the early '70's down in Misseri. Him and Wayne Bloomquist were drinking whiskey, singing, "Together, Again," by Buck Owens, I believe.
Still buy powder from him from time to time.

He made kind of a broad statement there. Antimony will work against the round ball accuracy, and must be a factor from the beginning of load development. I shoot mainly WW's for round ball, and pure lead won't shoot any better in my rifles. I believe what he meant was, if you change alloys, you will have differences in the action of the powder pressure upon the ball.

Also, when you begin adding elements into an alloy, the amounts are very hard to control and without weighing each ball you will have a greater variation in weight, although it will only be a few grains. For a plinker or hunter, it's a non-problem.

Aladin · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2003, 02:32:18 PM »

"antimony hardens lead in the concentration found in wheel weights enough so that they will not bump up in roundball loads and are too hard to load in muzzleloaders in a size that will seal. Thus you get a poor seal in roundball applications"

Wayne I thought the patching provided the gas seal using rd balls?

The Shrink · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2003, 01:31:34 AM »

Alladin

My overgeneralization. I don't shoot caplock rifles, just caplock pistols. In these it's hard enough to seat them when they are pure lead.

Aladin · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2003, 01:35:41 AM »

Quote from: The Shrink

Alladin

My overgeneralization. I don't shoot caplock rifles, just caplock pistols. In these it's hard enough to seat them when they are pure lead.

I don't shooten them myself Wayne. Just some guys have told me ww alloy round balls are preferred [by them anyway] for better penetration. And I think if that lead ball did indeed upset much it'd be about a knuckle ball for accuracy.

The Shrink · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2003, 01:39:48 AM »

Aladin

I don't know. Again, going from the pistol experience, a lot of guys are using an oversixe ball so that they get a longer bearing surface on the rifiling. This would create the same shape projectile as one that was slightly upset, e.g. the Ferguson or Hall or any of the early breach loaders using a slightly oversized ball would do the same thing.

Aladin · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2003, 01:49:43 AM »

Good point Wayne, but remember that peee-stol is a short range weapon whereas the long stick is designed to reach out and touch them,

Good to see your handle around BTW. Ever visit the MSN BPCR site?

Sheriff Bart · « **Reply #8 on:** December 01, 2003, 10:07:18 AM »

Good Points all

What I am finding is that bullets with antimony in the mix just are not shooting as good a group as pure lead and tin. Bullets with the same visual inspection, the same weight from the same mould sized to the same diameter. Lead and tin are grouping on average 1" smaller groups at 100 yds from 3 different iron sighted rifles. No problems with antimony in smokless loads though. I am wondering if the antimony mixes are not alloying evenly and the lower rpm's of the black powder are magnifying the problem. Maybe the lead tin is less prone to microscopic voids? Maybe it is just the size of the bullets? 1" at 100 yds is not a big difference but at 600? My solution for now is just to stick with the pure lead/tin mix. I intend to continue to experiment.

Aladin · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2003, 12:47:14 PM »

Thing about antimonal alloys Bart is they tend to harden to varying degrees as they cool on a pad. IE-- one side is somewhat harder than the other. If that changes round ball accuracy I dunno.

I anneal 45/70 bullets when cast of ww alloy-- 425 degrees for an hour and then a slow cool shutting the oven off. Their dead soft as they can be when cool and age harden more uniformly together...