Re-chambering a .30-30 Combination Gun

[sae8425]

I have a Savage 24 .30-30/12 ga (synthetic stock) that I've been very happy with.
I also have a chamber adapter so I can use pistol ammo for small game/vermin.
However, my partner and I are planning to move much further north in about 4-5 years.
So a bit more oomph for moose or elk (or longer ranges) would be desirable.
Since I'd like to be able to continue using .32 cal pistol ammo in my 'combo', that lets out larger caliber rifles.
I also don't want to give up interchangeable shotgun chokes (which precludes the Blaser 95/97 I believe).
Most knowledgeable users seem to believe that a rimmed cartridge is the only (or best) type for a 'combo' gun.
Most also seem to say that the rifle barrel should be under the shotgun barrel with more powerful cartridges.
From my research it would appear that my choices are rather limited.
So I'm wondering if I could have my Savage 24 re-chambered from .30-30 to either 7.62x54R or .307 Win.
Does anyone have any knowledge/data as to the 24's design/strength in regard to such a modification?
If this idea might have some merit, any suggestions as to gunsmiths able to carry out such re-working?
But if re-chambering is not advisable/possible, then another 'combo' gun will be required.
However, all the 'combo' guns with interchangeable shotgun chokes only seem to be available in .308 or .30-06.
So; how much of a handicap would not having a rimmed cartridge really be? Livable; or potentially life threatening?
Does not having a rimmed cartridge make quickly reloading the lower rifle barrel difficult (or virtually impossible)?
If I have to use a rimless cartridge, based on what I perceive to be 'the facts', I would prefer a .30-06.
Since the CPU of a .308 is slightly higher, I guess the .30-06 would actually stress an otherwise identical gun less.
Or; could either the .308 or the .30-06 be re-chambered for a rimmed cartridge?
Dimensionally it appears that a .308 could be re-chambered into a 7.62x54R, or perhaps a 8x57 JRS.
But are there any rimmed cartridges that a .30-06 could be re-chambered for?
Have I overlooked any 'combo' guns that use suitable rimmed cartridges and have interchangeable chokes?
If so which ones?
Are there any particularly good outlets for 'combo' guns that I should contact/monitor?
Might anyone know of any potentially suitable 'combo' guns currently/possibly for sale?
Many thanks to one and all for taking the time to respond and offer advice.
Best regards,
Steve

[Drilling Man]

  Considering all the problems with the Savage 24's with regulation ect...  I'd sell it and buy a used Valmet 412.  It's a major step UP for not much more $$.

  "IF" i had a 24 in 30-30, and i just "had" to try something to get more power, i'd go Ackley Improved, as the 30-30 is one AI's that really does gain some velocity without increaseing pressure.

  It probably will still have all the other problems though...

  DM

[dougk]

Steve
Lots of good questions...

I believe Baikal, Savage, CZ, Krieghoff, Merkel and Heym all make combo guns.  I am sure there are a few others but I don't recall their names.

Valmet 412 are available used as is the Tikka 512.  The Valmet was made in Finland and the Tikka in Italy.  The general view is that the Valmet is of better quality.

I had a Baikal and sold it for the Valmet.  The Valmet is easily adjusted for point of impact for both windage and elevation. 

I have not seen a Valmet 412 combo with screw in chokes on the shotgun barrel. 

Rechambering the Savage is a personal decision, but you might want to compare the cost of purchasing a used combo vs rechambering the Savage.

Gunbroker, Auctionarms and gunsamerica all have listings. 

[charles p]

I'd ask several moose hunters what type rifle they use.

[coyotejoe]

Savage 24s seem to shoot loose pretty quick with the 30/30, I sure wouldn't consider rechambering to a larger, higher pressure round. Except for the big bears and within iron sight range there is nothing lacking in the 30/30.

[Rangr44]

FWIW, a fella over on the leverguns forum showed the pics last year, when he shot/killed one of the largest Alaskan Moose (65" wide, fully-palmated antlers) I've ever laid eyes on - with a single shot from his .30-30.

.

[cavebear803]

  You could probably have it rechamberred to 30/40 Krag. And then shoot a 200 grain bullet of stouter construction at about the speed of the 170 grain 30/30. All this at about the same pressures as it handles now; roughly 38-39 thousand. I know it works out well with the H&R single shots! Just a suggestion.( you have to reload to get premium bullets in the 30/40 though.) Hollis

[Sir Charles deMoutonBlack]

The whole idea of re-chambering a Savage mod. 24 to a heavier thirty is making me nervous!

I say, stick with the thuddy-thuddy, or get a combo already chambered for a stronger calibre.

I'll stick with my Brno in 7 x 57R/12.  And so will my son and a brother.

[thxmrgarand]

Coyotejoe,

What shoots loose on the 24 30-30?  I have only used mine for hunting although I have shot a few rounds of trap with it just to become accustomed to it.  It seems as solid as any break-open gun I have ever shot.  Thanks.

[Drilling Man]

Coyotejoe,

What shoots loose on the 24 30-30?  I have only used mine for hunting although I have shot a few rounds of trap with it just to become accustomed to it.  It seems as solid as any break-open gun I have ever shot.  Thanks.

  I guess you've never shot a Savage 2400 or a Valmet 412...

  DM

[AkMike1]

IMHO that action would rapidly become pieces to be removed from tender parts of your anatomy.. I think that 30-30 was about the biggest baddest round they used in it.

Either use it as is and appreciate it for what it is or move up to another gun. Moose have died from the 30-30 for many years already.. They haven't gotten kelvar.

[sae8425]

Many thanks to all for taking the time to respond with advice and comments.

I had pretty much already concluded that re-chambering the .30-30 on my Savage 24 might not be such a hot idea. But it was very informative to read the less than glowing comments on the .30-30 Savage 24.

Are they really that much inferior to a Valmet/Tikka/Baikal? And if they are, how so and why so? Are both the shotgun and rifle problematic, or just one of them?

But, any other combination gun I get MUST have screw in interchangeable chokes.

I just don't want to loose the ability of going from extra full to riffled slug chokes. I hunt more with the shotgun than I do with the rifle, so not having interchangeable chokes would be a 'deal breaker'.

So, just what other combination gun should I buy?

I guess that a 12 ga over a .30-06 would give me the ability to use factory loaded 220 gr bullets (I'd have to hand-load 220 gr .308s I believe). I also read that there are 'ballistics issues' with bullets heavier than 180 gr in the .308. True?

My understanding is that the CUP for the .308 is slightly higher than the .30-06; so does this mean that in the same gun a .30-06 would stress the receiver less than a .308 would? Or is this a bit more complex and not of any real significance?

But neither of these cartridges are rimmed. Is this really such an issue (especially with the rifle barrel below the shotgun) as it is made out to be? Are there extraction, rapid reloading issues that can only be resolved by using rimmed cartridges?

I have looked, and looked and looked, but the only combination gun I have found with screw in chokes is the Baikal. Is my choice really that limited? Does anyone know of any other combination guns with 12 ga screw in chokes in .30-06 caliber?

If it is a Baikal (or nothing), I gather that the Baikal is not quite has highly regarded as the Valmet; correct? What will be the downsides of Baikal ownership, compared to Valmet/Tikka ownership?

I guess that the steel used in all of them will provide a barrel life in excess measured in many thousands of rounds; right?

I much appreciate everyone taking the time to share their insight and knowledge.

Steve

[dougk]

The Baikal 30-06 combo is the only one that I know of that comes from the factory with screw in chokes.  The Baikal I had was regulared perfectly for the shotgun at 75 yrds and the rifle at 100 yards.  I had the rifled slug choke and the turkey choke from Colonial Arms, that gun took a turkey at 55 yards. 

There was nothing wrong with the Baikal.  I main reason I sold it was due to problems with the Spartan combo.

One option is to get a Valmet 412 and have the barrel modified to accept screw in chokes.  I have seen pictures of a 412 that was modified to accept screw in chokes.

If it were me I would modify the Valmet because I know  and elevation can be easily adjusted.

[AkMike1]

When the Biakal DR's were hot on the rumor mill and none had come in yet. Opinions were based solely on the price. They did turn out to have some flaws, bad trigger pulls and poor stocking designs. BUT they are very accurate and easily tuned for different loads.
 Based solely on my limited experiences with 2 DR's of theirs I'd say go for it. They'll be rude and crude but very functional and overbuilt.

[Swampman]

I think the .30-40 Krag would be perfect.  In some areas of the North .303 is more common.

[AkMike1]

From what I see here

http://www.jdcomponents.com/loadinfo/3040krag/3040krag.html

 The peak pressure is way too high IMO. Try to find one with no more than 14 tons pressure for break open rifles. Yes I know it has been done but I wouldnt.

[Drilling Man]

Many thanks to all for taking the time to respond with advice and comments.

I had pretty much already concluded that re-chambering the .30-30 on my Savage 24 might not be such a hot idea. But it was very informative to read the less than glowing comments on the .30-30 Savage 24.

1. Are they really that much inferior to a Valmet/Tikka/Baikal? And if they are, how so and why so? Are both the shotgun and rifle problematic, or just one of them?

2. But, any other combination gun I get MUST have screw in interchangeable chokes.

I just don't want to loose the ability of going from extra full to riffled slug chokes. I hunt more with the shotgun than I do with the rifle, so not having interchangeable chokes would be a 'deal breaker'.

So, just what other combination gun should I buy?

3. I guess that a 12 ga over a .30-06 would give me the ability to use factory loaded 220 gr bullets (I'd have to hand-load 220 gr .308s I believe). I also read that there are 'ballistics issues' with bullets heavier than 180 gr in the .308. True?

4. My understanding is that the CUP for the .308 is slightly higher than the .30-06; so does this mean that in the same gun a .30-06 would stress the receiver less than a .308 would? Or is this a bit more complex and not of any real significance?

5. But neither of these cartridges are rimmed. Is this really such an issue (especially with the rifle barrel below the shotgun) as it is made out to be? Are there extraction, rapid reloading issues that can only be resolved by using rimmed cartridges?

I have looked, and looked and looked, but the only combination gun I have found with screw in chokes is the Baikal. Is my choice really that limited? Does anyone know of any other combination guns with 12 ga screw in chokes in .30-06 caliber?

6. If it is a Baikal (or nothing), I gather that the Baikal is not quite has highly regarded as the Valmet; correct? What will be the downsides of Baikal ownership, compared to Valmet/Tikka ownership?

7. I guess that the steel used in all of them will provide a barrel life in excess measured in many thousands of rounds; right?

I much appreciate everyone taking the time to share their insight and knowledge.

Steve

1.  The Savage isn't even in the same league!  The Savage is a hammer gun, not near as strong, doesn't have any others bbls available, hard to scope, you can't regualte both bbls together to the sights, doesn't have double triggers available and on and on...

2.  Valmet did advertise combo bbl. sets with screw in choke tubes just before they went to Itally with production, but they can be installed in any Valmet bbl. by several sources.

3.  None of the common 220 grain bullets perform as well as the 200 grain bullets, expecially the 200 Nosler Partition.  Loaded in a 30-06, they have enough penetration for any animal in NA, including brown bears.  BUT you must do your part and hit them properly.  Go with the 30-06, it pushes the heavier 30 cal. bullets faster, with better performance on the biggest animals.

4.  In a 412, this is not an issue, but for the biggest animals, the 30-06 is the better choise, as stated above.

5.  In a 412, it's not a problem, but rimless are a bit slower to reload after a shot compared to rimmed.  If you don't use MAX loads, you won't have any problems with the extractor on a 412.

6.  IMHO the 412 is a much better gun, with many more options available.  If needed, the 412 gives a lot more regualtion of the bbls...  The 412 scope mount works VERY well, and allows you to put it on to take a longer shot...  Also, i wouldn't own a combo gun that "didn't" have double triggers, that's a biggie for me...the "instant" choise of the shot or rifle bbl...  There also were several stock choises available for the 412's.

7.  The steel in the 412's is of VERY high quality, and with proper care, i doubt you can wear one out.

  DM

[sae8425]

In the face of overwhelming opinion, I will bow to the majority collective wisdom.
So, anyone know of a Valmet 412 in 12ga/.30-06 that is available?
And, how easy is it for someone in the US to obtain a combination gun from Canada?
Again, many thanks for everyone who has taken the time to share their knowledge.
best regards,
Steve

[dougk]

They show up on the major boards (gunbroker, guns international, auctionarms) and Cabelas gun room.  If you find one without a scope mount expect to pay $240 for a new scope mount.

I would look for one with the scope mount.

There is a Valmet 3 barrel set for sale on gunbroker.  It is 12/12, 30-06 DR and 12/30-06 with a hard case.  I typically search on "Valmet 412"  on the major boards.

Let us know what you find.  I have found they come in groups.

Good Luck

Doug

[dougk]

Here is the link that shows a 412 with screw in chokes.  http://longrangehunting.com/forums/f71/show-me-your-gobbler-getter-32121/

[sae8425]

coyotejoe,

In reply # 4 you said "Savage 24s seem to shoot loose pretty quick with the 30/30". Exactly what does 'shoot loose' mean?

Does this mean that they physically ‘loosen up’ and develop gaps around the rear of the breech mechanism? How long/many rounds might this take to happen? Does this get to the point of opening while firing? Surly in such a lawsuit oriented market, such a product 'defect' would never be able to survive.

Is this primarily/only caused by the .30-30, or would using high power 12 ga slugs also cause problems? I use Remington's Buckhammer Slugs (the full power versions) that produce over 3,000 ft-lbs muzzle energy. As I can’t find anything to indicate that the Buckhammers are even close to the SAMMI shotgun pressure limit (12,000 psi?), I assume that running half a dozen of these 1-3/8 oz high power slugs through my Savage 24 each year isn’t going to dramatically shorten it’s life. Or is it?

AkMike1,

In reply # 15, you said "Try to find one with no more than 14 tons pressure for break open rifles". As best I can figure, that converts to about 30,278 CUP. So, that means that both the 150 & 170 gr Winchester factory loads (at 30,000 CUP) are just under this limit.

Are you saying that Savage successfully marketed a gun that wasn't safe up to the SAMMI maximum load levels for the .30-30?

If this level is safe, why has coyotejoe stated that "Savage 24s seem to shoot loose pretty quick with the 30/30"? Are many Savage 24 owners handloading to pressure levels higher than the SAMMI maximum that could/can cause problems in the short term?

Many thanks for taking the time to respond.

Best regards,

Steve

[billy_56081]

30-30AI? Same max pressure, same head dimensions, same back thrust, more power. Seems like a natural in this combo.

[coyotejoe]

I haven't checked this forum for a long time but to answer your question. Yes, my Savage M-24 after two boxes of Remington factory loads and maybe two boxes of 20 gauge shotshells was so loose you could twist the barrels side to side at least 1/16", maybe more.
 I had one of the first versions of the M-24V in .222 over 20 gauge and it seemed to be a pretty good gun, at least after I modified the extractor system to eliminate that flimsy stamped steel dog leg actuator. Those first versions had a true monoblock breech with both barrels inserted into holes in the monoblock which also formed the underlug. The next model, the 30/30 which loosened up, had the shotgun barrel forged with a "U" shape groove on top with the rifle barrel brazed into that groove and the underlug brazed onto the bottom. The current production, which you have, has five pieces brazed together. The rifle barrel sits atop the shotgun barrel, the underlug is brazed to the bottom of the shotgun barrel and filler plates are brazed to each side to cover the sides of the figure "8" formed by the two barrels. The Savage marketing department still calls it a "monoblock" even though it clearly is a "five-o-block"!
 I think those who have suggested rechambering to more powerful cartridges have never had any hands on experience with the Savage M-24V, it really is a very crude and flimsy gun. The rimfire over 20 gauge combo works fine but putting a 30/30 on top is really too much.
  I'd sell the Savage and get one of the Russian guns if you just have to have a combo. I was very tempted when CDNN was selling the 12 gauge over 6.5X55 on closeout very cheap. But I looked at the weight, 8 1/2 pounds without a scope and said "who needs it?"

[sae8425]

coyotejoe,

Thanks for the very thorough explanation of the M-24 construction details. However, I fail to see how the number of pieces in almost any complex article is in itself of any real consequence. Surely the important issues are how the multiple parts are designed and joined together. Are you inferring that Savage's 24V design and assembly methods weren't up to the appropriate industry standards?

Does anyone on this forum have a remotely kind word to say about the Savage 24V .30-30/12 ga combination? I readily admit that it's not a Valmet, nor remotely a Blaser (which I assume should be a major step up from the Valmet); but from what the members of this forum say, the 24V is beneath contempt! Well the opinions certainly have been fairly consistent.

The general position here seems to be that the Savage 24V isn't capable of withstanding .30-30 pressure levels. Well, I just find that hard to believe. If, the 24V is as woefully inadequate as everyone here thinks, Savage would long ago have been forced to litigate this issue (after all, isn't the .30-30 still the most popular deer cartridge in North America?), and if they lost, then the 24V would have been withdrawn. I can't find any reference to the .30-30 24V having suffered this fate. But perhaps I just haven't done enough research on this issue yet.

AkMike1 said that I should use ammo that has a peak pressure of no more than 28,000 psi in a break open rifle. The only SAMMI centerfire load I can find at this low a pressure level is for the trap door .45-70. The SAMMI pressure level for the .30-30 is 42,000 psi (which, is higher than the 37,000 psi SAMMI pressure level for the .30-40 Krag).

So I contacted Savage and asked if .30-30 ammo to the SAMMI maximum pressure level of 42,000 psi was suitable for use in the 24V. Savage has assured me that ALL of their firearms are tested to pressure levels well in excess of SAMMI specifications, and ALL of their firearms can be used without ANY ill effects with ammo that complies with the SAMMI maximum pressure guidelines.

So Savage says that SAMMI compliant 42,000 psi .30-30 loads are suitable for use in the 24V. Not 28,000 psi, or 37,000 psi, but 42,000 psi.

Surely, if .30-30 ammo to SAMMI maximum pressure specifications wasn't suitable for the 24V, then Savage wouldn't tell a customer that it was. Now that Savage has told me this (and I have it on tape!), if my 24V 'loosens up' from using 42,000 psi loads, I would contend that Savage is fully liable.

Hell, if now I re-chamber my 24V to .30-40 Krag (which only has a 37,000 psi SAMMI pressure limit), I would gain velocity, energy, and at the same time reduce the maximum pressure by 5,000 psi. How is this not a win, win proposition?

Perhaps Savage simply doesn't realize how much of a crap firearm the 24V in .30-30 is. If that is so, and my 24V is literally 'knocked apart' by using SAMMI compliant 42,000 psi .30-30 loads, then I would be doing Savage a favor by highlighting the faults in their sub-standard 24V during any subsequent litigation.

Just the thoughts of one Savage 24V owner.

As always, thoughts and comments are appreciated.

Best regards,

Steve

[Drilling Man]

  Ever heard of a Savage 2400?  That was Savages answer to having a BETTER combo gun...  Guess who made it?

  DM

[coyotejoe]

coyotejoe,

Thanks for the very thorough explanation of the M-24 construction details. However, I fail to see how the number of pieces in almost any complex article is in itself of any real consequence. Surely the important issues are how the multiple parts are designed and joined together. Are you inferring that Savage's 24V design and assembly methods weren't up to the appropriate industry standards?


Just the thoughts of one Savage 24V owner.

As always, thoughts and comments are appreciated.
quote

If you don't see how a bunch of bits and pieces brazed togather will be inferior to one piece machined from a single block of steel then I doubt I could expalin it to your satisfaction. Let me just say that the Savage 24 is the only current production firearm having the underlug brazed on.  Savage has been on a quest to build them cheaper and still cheaper and the final version is the cheapest yet. But my main objection,  besides the weight, is their flimsy, Rube Goldberg  excuse for an extractor.
 If you love your Savage, why don't you just live with it. As I stated in my first reply, there is nothing wrong with the 30/30 cartridge. But if you feel the need for more power, don't even think of rechambering the Savage.
 Oh, and I said "in current production" but I believe Savage has dropped the 24, I don't see it on the web.