Author Topic: Mars  (Read 2316 times)

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Offline Cohort

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Mars
« on: July 01, 2010, 03:14:48 PM »
Ahhhh ,that got your attention didn't it ?

Mars :
Only less than two thirds the size of Earth ,it shows signs of having once been covered in water in a liquid state.
The deep canyons and fissures on the surface ,are the results of the asteroid impact that formed Mouns Olympus ,and caused the atmosphere to disappear into space.
BUT ,H2O is a lot harder to dissolve into a vacuum than a gas is . Water being of a heavy mass would only fall back to the surface ,and be absorbed into the deep tectonic fissures caused by the asteroid impact.
Mars is heavy in Iron ore, thus the red color ,but where there is Iron ,there is GOLD !
As far as where the water went , http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/news/mgs-20061206.html
From our most recent studys, that will be no more thanks to Obama ,Mars once looked like this minus any plant life. Not meaning it didn't exist ,but we don't know to what extent.


Opp's how did this get in There ?


Mars rovers that were designed to only last 90 days ,do not continue to operate for three years on such a hostile surface as Mars ,without some form of help.
Wheels falling off ,stuck in sand , the dirt being wiped off the solar panel's after a long hard winter ?
Come on guys , i guess swampman would say the little Mars fairys did that ?
NOT ,accourding to Russia they damn sure didn't. In fact it is trolls like him who you as the American People should be discounting in force.

We could at this point in our Science right the problems with Mars ,and return it to a hospitable ,yet harsh ,planet in less than three years.
Our problem right now is space fight , and Orion would have made that possible in a fraction of what it is now.
Obama sure fixed that for all of us didn't he ? He relys on your short memory is what he does.
He killed manned space flight ,then jumped on NASA because the Orion was not ready yet ?

Then he says that we would land on an Asteroid ,and not the Moon ?
He was told to keep his ass off the Moon & Mars people.
REMEMBER ! WAKE UP !!!
Show courage ,show unity .

Offline blind ear

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Re: Mars
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 09:37:25 PM »
How did what get there? water? It got there by falling from space just as it did here. Life? it evolved there just like it did here. Five billion years allows for a lot of things to happed. National geographic had a very interesting show about the formation and developement of the Earth the Moon and life on earth in different forms.

For the Mars rover, everything lasts longer in a less stressfull enviornment, (I have no clue!)

What got my attention was the possibility that it was about Mars and the moon lining up but i think I missed it if it wasn't another planet.

eddiegjr
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Mars
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2010, 10:38:01 AM »
Mars is closer to half the size of Earth, not 2/3's.  The important part though is that it only has 10% of the MASS of Earth.  With the reduced mass, it has signficantly less gravity.  It's core also cooled much faster than Earth's, which resulted in a shutoff of Mar's geothermic system (which is what forms Olympic Mons - it's an extinct volcano), as well as shutting off any magnetic field it may have had.

The low gravity and lack of magnetic field was what caused any significant atmosphere it had to bleed off over the years. 

As far as terraforming Mars - it's possible, but it'd be a much longer term goal than 3 years.  I saw some research once that stated that we might could get the temperature higher (through intentional global warming) within 1000 years or so, to the point where you could walk around with a good jacket an an oxygen mask.  Building up a significant atmosphere of oxygen though, in order to allow breaking without a mask - we're talking more on the order of 100,000 years.  Even then that process would require maintenance.  Without tending the atmosphere would slowly return back to it's original state.  Now, that's a process that would take MILLIONS of years, so it wouldn't be minute to minute balancing act, but it would be something to keep an eye on.

Still, I do agree that more study of all of our solar neighbors is worth pursuing.  That said, as far as finding current life somewhere other than Earth, Europa is by and large our best bet.  It's the 2nd Galilean moon of Jupiter.  It's got a surface mostly covered in ice, but tidal forces from Jupiter warm the interior of the moon to where the interior would turn to a water ocean below the ice (much like Earth 's solid surface has molten rock below).  We already have evidence of life in Earth's oceans feeding from geothermal vents that get no energy from the sun, so the precedent is certainly there.  I would LOVE to see a probe sent to break through the ice of Europa sometime soon.

That said, realistically speaking, I'd expect any life we find there to be at most simple bacterial life of sorts.  With the limited energy available I just wouldn't expect any significantly complex life forms to evolve there.


Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Mars
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2010, 10:59:51 AM »
From what I read, the moon has a lot of platinum.  Don't know about Mars.  We will eventually have to mine them.  Russia is already planning to build a space hotel and ferry people to it.  This would help pay for their space program.  Don't know why we haven't done that.  Until we solve the problem of socialism and communism here, and outsourcing work and jobs, we can't get back to a truely free market America we once had. 

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Mars
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2010, 11:32:51 AM »
From what I read, the moon has a lot of platinum.  Don't know about Mars.  We will eventually have to mine them.

The moon does indeed have a significant amount of platinum.  In the end though, I think we're more likely to end up mining the asteroids.  The moon, and Mars even moreso, are fairly big gravity wells.  Not nearly as big as the Earth's mind you, but you still have to expend a significant amount of energy to leave those surfaces (and you're only adding to that if you're hauling back huge cargos of metal and ore).

Asteroids, by comparison, are smaller bodies. You can break away from it much, MUCH easier ( to the point where you could jump out of the gravity well of some of them :)), or even just tow the whole thing back.

That said, towing back asteroids really does make me a little nervous.  We'd need size limits on this.  Rather than an broken oil pipe in the Gulf, I'd hate to see the results of a botched asteroid reentry :D.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Mars
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 12:54:46 PM »
I've read that icy astroids could be redirected to the moon or Mars for water sources.  It could be used for human consumption and/or cracked using solar power for making liquid hydrogen/oxygen for fuel or breathing. 

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Mars
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 05:20:45 PM »
I've read that icy astroids could be redirected to the moon or Mars for water sources.  It could be used for human consumption and/or cracked using solar power for making liquid hydrogen/oxygen for fuel or breathing. 

Most icy bodies are much farther out than the asteroid belt.  It isn't until you get out to the distance of Pluto (into the Kuiper Belt) until you get to a lot of icy bodies vs rocky/metallic bodies.  Reason being anything too close that's icy starts to evaporate.   Essentially, it becomes a comet.  Only those that dip into the inner system briefly and then travel back out retain significant mass.  Those that were icy and in more stable close orbits evaporated away long ago (also why shorter period comets are usually not as bright - the more frequently they travel inward the more mass they lose).  I'm truly happy that I got to see Hale-Bopp when it passed through years ago.  Given how bright it was, and the fact that it has, IIRC, a 3000 year return time, it truly was a rare opportunity.

As it looks though, both the moon and Mars already appear to have pretty significant water  sources below their surface.  They're mostly ice and slush as it is now, but if you needed it for habitation you could certainly extract it.

Offline Specklebelly

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Re: Mars
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2010, 04:54:59 PM »
I think someone probably got an A in astronomy class.   ;D

Good info, thanks guys.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Mars
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 03:27:18 AM »
McGordan, Mars is cold, it only gets to 32 d F at the equator in the daytime.  Astorids are below freezing.  I saw on Nasaspaceflight.com that they have been talking about mining astorids.  One astorid, I think Ceres is nothing but ice.  It is larger than the moon.  So, yes there are probably ice balls or rocks in the astroid belt.  We don't yet know all the minerals mars may have, but I think they have found aluminum as well as of course iron.  I think, if the world survives, and we survive beyond the current socialism, we will be mining the moon and Mars, and since Mars does have water, it could provide crops grown in greenhouses.  Unless there is water near the moons poles, it will require water being transported there for human consumption.  That is why the moon will probably only be used for mining.  The LaGrange points at L1 or L2 will be where they will want to build a large space station as a jump off to Mars or anywhere else.  The L points are the area where the Earth and Moons gravity cancel each other out.  Easier to break away and go to Mars or the astroids from there.  With solar or nuclear power, Mars will be inhabited. 

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Mars
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 05:42:07 AM »
McGordan, Mars is cold, it only gets to 32 d F at the equator in the daytime.

Mars is cold, but Mars is also mostly rocky and has sufficient gravity to maintain some semblance of an atmosphere.  Any ice that sublimates can eventually freeze and return the surface as ice again.  With smaller asteroids, not so.

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Astorids are below freezing. 

Kinda sorta.  Fill a cooler with ice.  The ice in that cooler is now at exactly the freezing point of water, but nothing is cooling it further - it's just the cooler keeping out the energy that is keeping it frozen.  Go back 12 hours later.  You'll have an ice/water slush.  Now, if you stick a therometer in that, it's STILL at the freezing point, but it can't maintain that because cold really isn't a "thing".  It's more just the absence of heat. As more heat is added to the system, more and more of the ice will melt, until you have none.  Until all of it is melted though, a thermometer will always read it as freezing.

A similar thing happens with colder bodies in the inner system.  Under direct sunlight, the ice will slowly melt, even though the object itself is freezing.  Things too close, melt completely away.  In this case the ice tends to sublimate - go from a solid directly into a gas.  When it does that, pressure from solar wind will push the gas outwards.  Unless the gravity of the object is high enough to hold onto that gas, it gets blown off.  That's why comets leave tails :).

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I saw on Nasaspaceflight.com that they have been talking about mining astorids.

Indeed, it's something that will likely happen.  For minerals and metals though, not water.

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One astorid, I think Ceres is nothing but ice.  It is larger than the moon.  So, yes there are probably ice balls or rocks in the astroid belt.

Sorry, but nope.  Ceres is easily the largest asteroid in the belt, but the moon is 3.5x the diameter and 77 times as massive.  Now, by virtue of it's relatively high mass for an asteroid (Ceres has almost one third of the mass of the entire belt), it's managed to hang onto more water ice than most, but like most of the planets we're talking mostly slushy rock and mud, not solid water like the outer Kuiper Belt objects.  Tell tale sign is the density.  Water as an ice has a density of roughly 0.9 g/cm^3.  The mean density of Ceres is 2.1 g/cm^3.  Well over twice that of water.  Compare that with most comets coming in from the outer system, which tend to be between 0.5 and 1 g/cm^3 (being mostly water and gases). 

Here is a good set of photographs in scale to show the size differences between the Earth, Moon, and Ceres.



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We don't yet know all the minerals mars may have, but I think they have found aluminum as well as of course iron.  I think, if the world survives, and we survive beyond the current socialism, we will be mining the moon and Mars, and since Mars does have water, it could provide crops grown in greenhouses.

Mining the asteroids for minerals and ore is pretty likely. For water, the economics just isn't there.   You're still going to have to seperate it from slush, and if you're going to do that, virtually all the inner bodies where you'd want to use it have it already anyways, and without the need for transport (and Earth certainly won't need it - desalinization will always come out ahead in cost vs transporting through space).  Crops run into a similar problem, with crops grown on Mars likely only being useful for people living on Mars.  You just have to think of it from a point of economics: the cost to transport something between planets is ENORMOUS.  Huge.  Unimaginably high.  For a renewable item like produce, you will never reach a break even point.  Put it this way, one of the cheapest methods of getting into orbit currently is the Russian Proton rockets.  The current cost just to get TO ORBIT - not from one planet to another, but just from the surface into space - is $4300 per kg.   So 1 pound of corn would cost $9,460 to get into space - using one of the cheapest methods we know (some other rockets cost 10x as much). Combine that with the fact that Mars is twice as far away from the Sun as Earth, and hence receives half the solar energy, you just don't have a good recipe for an export market in agriculture.  The only reason to grow crops on Mars would be for colonists there, to avoid the reverse high cost of bringing food over from Earth.

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Unless there is water near the moons poles, it will require water being transported there for human consumption.  That is why the moon will probably only be used for mining. 

NASA has already shown via the LCROSS mission that the moon does indeed have water.  Given it's relative proximity, it's also much easier to supply it vs a Martian colony (ie, in a pinch if something went wrong or food ran low, we can have cargo to the moon in 3-4 days - getting something to Mars takes a few months minimum).  Combine that with the much higher amount of solar energy reaching the moon vs Mars, and I think the moon is much more likely for colonization (at least earlier - I think in time both with be colonized).

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The LaGrange points at L1 or L2 will be where they will want to build a large space station as a jump off to Mars or anywhere else.  The L points are the area where the Earth and Moons gravity cancel each other out.  Easier to break away and go to Mars or the astroids from there.  With solar or nuclear power, Mars will be inhabited. 

That one I agree with, but I think we'll be on the Moon much earlier, as I said just due to proximity.  It will be a LONG time before any of these colonies would be completely self-sufficient, and the moon is just an easier maintenance proposition.  Its quicker to get to, the gravity is lower (so return trips take less energy), it gets more solar energy, etc.  Sure it has no atmosphere, but Mars' atmosphere is relatively thin and not at all breathable, so you're going to have to have air-tight structures with an artificial atmosphere in either location anyways.

Offline Zulu

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Re: Mars
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 11:15:59 AM »
MGMorden,
If the cost to get something into space is $4300 per kg, then one pound of corn would cost $1954, not $9460.
See, someone is paying attention. ;D
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Mars
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 11:21:23 AM »
MGMorden,
If the cost to get something into space is $4300 per kg, then one pound of corn would cost $1954, not $9460.
See, someone is paying attention. ;D
Zulu

D'oh!!  You're right.  I multiplied when I should have divided :).  Stupid metric system :D.

Guess it could have been worse though.  A similar error (metric to imperial) destroyed the Mars Climate Orbiter, a $125 million spacecraft :)

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-09-30/tech/9909_30_mars.metric.02_1_climate-orbiter-spacecraft-team-metric-system?_s=PM:TECH

I think we can agree though that it's still some pretty expensive corn.