Two Gunstock finishing questions

[dondford]

I am just finished sanding a stock and getting ready to put the finish on and have two questions:

1) Filling the pores - in the past I have wet sanding using the oil cut 50/50 with mineral spirits6. for many, many cycles.  I am in the South and drying time between coats are a killer.  Is there a better way.  I have pore fillers advertised.  Is there a better way; can someone suggest a product

2) At what stage in the finishing process should I send the stock to be checkered.

Thanking you in advance for any assistance.

Don

[Flint]

I have never known anyone to "wet sand" wood...  Particularly with oil and/or mineral spirits. Mineral oil or spirits should not be used on wood.   I dry sand down to 400 or even 600.  Then lightly wet the surface with water with your fingers to raise the grain, speed dry with a hair dryer, (or torch if you are careful and brave).  Re-sand with fine paper and repeat few times until the grain no longer raises.

Raising the grain and resmoothing will prevent the wood from swelling later after finishing should it get wet and the water gets to the wood through scuff marks and scratches, etc.   Birchwood-Casey makes stock filler and Tru-Oil Oil finish for stocks.  The Birchwood-Casey stock finish dries fast, in a few hours or at most overnight and it's ready to rub with 0000 steel wool and recoat.  Use 3 or 4 coats.

http://www.gunaccessories.com/birchwoodcasey/StockFinishing.asp

Plain linseed oil without drying agents in it takes forever to dry.

I would expect the wood should be sanded, the grain raised and re-smoothed without any finish applied before checkering, but you should ask the person who will do the checkering.

[mcwoodduck]

I just did a stock.
I did not go to the wetsand step.
But I did take it to 320.  I then just applied a coat of lindseed oil.
As it was 90% dry I applied a second thin coat, and so on for about 10 coats.
Seal up the wood nice and gave me a place to start.
After the 10th coat I got shinny spots and am now waiting for it to harden to sand off all the shinny spots and drip marks.
then I will finish coat with multiple layers of lindseed oil with a full dry and sanding inbetween.  Should take about 3 to 4 months to finish.

[Huffmanite]

Mcwoodduck, Not knowing what finish you will use after dealing with filling grain of your stock hampers a good answer.  Let's assume it is some kind of finish that can go over an oil based stain.  If so, may want to consider using a natural/clear stain on wood and then wet sand it like you usually do using a 320 grit paper.  Sand with grain, not against it and the slurry you produce will help fill the grain.  Work quickly and before stain is too tacky, wipe off excess stain, with a soft cotton cloth, like an old Tee shirt.  Again wipe with grain, not against it.  The stain should dry fairly quickly, but I usually wait at least 12 hours.  Repeat again, using a 400 grit paper, if necessary.  When you are satisfied with smoothness of wood and grain is filled, apply your final finish.  This is a technique with stain I've used a number of times with good success.   But, not unusual for me to mix a stain with antique oil/danish oil or even a tung type oil, apply, wet sand, wipe and then let dry.  I repeat this process maybe one or two more times till I have a very smooth finish with grain filled and then I apply a final finish wiping on the antique/danish oil or tung oil with a soft cotton cloth. 

[Swampman]

Truoil is a nice high gloss varnish.  Minwax Satin Tung Oil Finish looks great and is very easy to use.

[Doug B.]

Truoil is a nice high gloss varnish.  Minwax Satin Tung Oil Finish looks great and is very easy to use.

I have experience applying the tung oil. How is the Truoil applied and where is it available? Does it come in other finishes other than high gloss or is a light sanding (600 grit) after the final coat enough to tone down the gloss? I have done this with poly finishes and it works great.

One other thing.....is the Truoil really as good as claimed so I can justify yet another purchase for refinishing stocks/forearms?

[mcwoodduck]

Mcwoodduck, Not knowing what finish you will use after dealing with filling grain of your stock hampers a good answer.  Let's assume it is some kind of finish that can go over an oil based stain.  If so, may want to consider using a natural/clear stain on wood and then wet sand it like you usually do using a 320 grit paper.  Sand with grain, not against it and the slurry you produce will help fill the grain.  Work quickly and before stain is too tacky, wipe off excess stain, with a soft cotton cloth, like an old Tee shirt.  Again wipe with grain, not against it.  The stain should dry fairly quickly, but I usually wait at least 12 hours.  Repeat again, using a 400 grit paper, if necessary.  When you are satisfied with smoothness of wood and grain is filled, apply your final finish.  This is a technique with stain I've used a number of times with good success.   But, not unusual for me to mix a stain with antique oil/danish oil or even a tung type oil, apply, wet sand, wipe and then let dry.  I repeat this process maybe one or two more times till I have a very smooth finish with grain filled and then I apply a final finish wiping on the antique/danish oil or tung oil with a soft cotton cloth. 

I used to do bright work on boats.
I am good with finishes.  I have done a couple stocks with marine varnish, and the finish looks about 2" deep.  With this gun I wanted to use Lind seed oil as that is what early finishes were and it gives the wood a nice warm glow, is water proof and will either dry stain, or shinny depening on how many coats you apply and how you apply it.  painting it on with foam brushes and allowing it to dry will give you a varnish like look.  Applying it and then rubbing it with a dry clean cloth will give you a satin finish.  I am leaning to the satin finish.

[gunnut69]

TruOil is a blend of linseed oil and dryers to let it harden quicker and stay hard when wet and hot. Tung oil is good but a bit more brittle and sometimes can craze or crack over time. Also the pot life after it's opened is shorter than TruOil. I've done a lot of stocks and found that the 'whisjering' step avails you of very little.. Factories don't do this and they've been building stocks for many years with no major problems.. If any major amount of moisture gets under the stock finsh the wood itself will swell and damage the finish.. I've done a lot of stock work over the years and finally settled on a simplified process...Sand to the level you wish. I usually stop with worn 220 grit or about 320/400. This is polished with steel wool (00 or 000) which should leave the wood surface looking finished.. The TruOil is applied(first coat can be thinned if you wish) and allowed to dry. If I'm after a bit denser finish the first coat or two is a material called 'OKEENE'. This is a fremch oil made of tung-linseed-pine oils. It is very thin and dries very slowly but this coat(s) is applied to hot wood. Use a heat gun and don't burn it. Apply the Okeene and keep the surfaces wet with the material until the stock cools..wait 15 minutes and wipe off all remaining materal. This can be repaeated if you wish. If this step is done wait at least a couple of days before applying TruOil. When the frist coat of finish is dry steel wool with 00-000 steel wool enough to dull the finish and remove a bit of the oil. Apply the next coat to the cleaned surface..allow to dry..repeat as needed. Holding the stock at anm angle to a bright light any pit will show up and the process needs to be repeated until the surface is smooth and blemish free. These pits are actually pores filling with finish. A little trick is to warm the stock with a hat gun before finish application and to use as little finish as possible and retain a wet feel as the matrial is applied.. The only method I've found that works well for me is too apply with the hands. A few drops on your hand and rub the wood evenly, start at the butt and sork your way to the tip--work quickly! The last swipes are always the length of the stock. DON"T over work the individual coat.. After the pores are filled apply the number of coats needed to byuild the look you want..but use 0000 steel wool between coats.. When the finish is slick and as deep as desired allow it to dry thoroughly, at least as week,.,. Lightly wool the surface with 0000 steel wool to just barely tuen it dull. If gloss is wanted a 'wet' coat is all[pied and allowed to dry in a dust free envoronment... OR THERE WILL BE DUST SPOTS IN THE FINISH!!! If the clasic satin finish is desired and couple of coats of wax is applied.. This will seal the finish to moisture and give it gloss (not shine). The wax must be applied to the shiny finish also but when buffed over the shiney surface it will look like a Weatherby. With minor changes this same process works well with the 'rub on' poly finshes..at least those I've tried.. I don't care much for poly as its more difficult to patch. The oil varnish and wax finish is the clasic winchester finish.. A bit of wax or a coat of oil(few drops only) and then the wax will serve to maintain this finish forever(more or less). The best tip is to warm the wood before applying anything..  Wood should almost always be completely finished before checkering. The unless is should you wish a full carved border as it saves work to layout and carve the border before finishing and complete the checkering pattern after..

[Dirt Bag]

    Don;
            All of these are "sanded in oil". We don't claim to be any sort of experts here, but have tried plenty of quick and easy finishes, and hit the wall with all of them...  That being, we didn't get the results we were hoping for. We start out with Pro Custom Oil cut 50/50, and start sanding it in at 320 grit,and keep at it up to 600, each time taking it back down to bare or almost bare wood. By then it is pretty well filled, and what isn't will fill with several 1000 grit wet sandings. By now the bare wood is shining nice. Most important thing is to give it plenty of drying time.... or the oil in the pores will shrink, and the whole thing will look like and orange peel. Couple weeks would be safe I guess. Then we start polishing it with 1500 grit and plain ol' boiled linseed oil to wet it....all rubbed down with your hands till it feels dry. Keep at it up to 2000 grit and go as far as you feel like, but it seems like some of the softer walnuts won't get as slick as the denser ones, no matter how much you polish, and are better suited to built up finishes if you like the shiney stuff. We always went for the in the wood glow, and this is best way we found to get it.
    Have tried using rottenstone both as a polish and as a filler, and we don't care much for it....or any of the fillers.....they raise hell with checkering tools, and we don't checker untill they are completely finished.   Then just more thinned BLO in the pattern and finally some good stock wax.
    Did I mention that there aint no easy way?  Like so many things, you get out of it what you put into it.
                                                Good luck Sir:
                                                                          D.B.
Gunnut.... I, for one, appreciate the time and effort that you put into your replies. Always clear and concise... detailed and easy to understand.   Thank you very much. I have learned plenty from reading them.
 

[dondford]

Flint:
I guess you have seen from several of the replies that wet sanding with various stock finishing oil to fill the pores is a very common, and some say preferred, method of applying a oiled finish.  Almost all of these methods recommend that for the first several coats the oil be cut by 50%-75% with mineral spirits to allow the thinner oil/sanding dust to better fill the pores.  After the pores are filled from the repeated wet sanding process, the 100% or slightly cut oil is then applied for several (sometimes many) coats as the final finish.

D

[dondford]

Thanks, guys for your comments.
Dirt Bag- Those are some beautiful stocks and a pile of work.  That is also some beautiful wood, where do your get your blanks/rough stocks?

D

[Dirt Bag]

Thanx Don;
                Got to admit, we dug out six of the better ones for the picture. (Sure wouldn't dare show some of the first ones we made way back when.) We buy blanks from where ever they seem like a good deal.  I looked over these guns, and best I can remember, the blanks all came from different places. To me, the best one of this batch is on the Model 12 - Bought it as a rifle blank in the late '70s..... Not sure, but seems the outfit was called Johnson Wood Products, in Strawberry Point Iowa. Old Winchesters just don't look right stocked with anything but Black Walnut. The 3200 stock blank came from New Zealand, and bought from Bill Dowtin, and we paid some big bucks for it---- What a pleasure it was to checker. There IS a difference. Guess we sort of collect blanks, and always have a a few stashed around.
    Don't know if you have read either of Steve Hughes' books, but the last one has some darn good stock finishing info.  Called Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing, and a good read for those of us who tinker with stocks.
            As always, hoping this finds everyone well;
                                                                                           D.B.

[gunnut69]

DirtBaf- Thanks for the compliments.. Those are certainly fine stocks.. Did you do the checkering? I worked quite a few stocks with steel tools and learned to hate sandpaper and all the various fillers and filling techniques.... It's the reason I use steel wool to final polish the wood prior to finishing.. Seems to let my tools last a bit longer. Of course the switch to carbide changed some of the rules but old habits are the hardest to break. I tried the sanding in the finish technique a few times vut found it hard to control the shape of the stock especially at the sharp edges and curves. It didn't help that I had customers ammering for their stocks. At the height of my work a Remington 700 stock would be ready for finish (a refinish of course) in under an hour and 3-5 could be easily completed a week and without a drying cabinet. I recently tried the 'rubbing poly' finishes available locally and found they work OK. It's still more difficult to repair than oil but is waterproof. No oil varnish (tung or linseed based) is water proof just water resistant. If just BLO is used the finish will usually soften in the hot, humid Missouri summers.. Don't asl how I know... In any case this has been an enjoyable thread and enlightening too!

[Dirt Bag]

Gunnut;
            We taught ourself to checker, as no one else around here did it, and we couldn't have afforded it even if there was. Our old gunsmith who's passed on now had done some but didn't like it at all. Most of his stocks we have seen are uncheckered.  Doing good checkering is a state of mind.... Patience, perseverence, and thinking about how good it will feel to finally see it through. Yeah, we tried a carbide cutter too.... Just could not get the "feel" for it..... very aggressive, and wanted to dig in. Took it to a piece of hard maple to try to take some of the bite out of it, and never could. Had it in one of the see through handles, and didn't care for it either. As you said...... "Old Habits..."  Seems that the cutter alone cost 30 bucks. Can buy plenty of Denbart cutters from Jantz Supply for 30 bucks. Usually can do one stock with a pair of spacers, and go thru 3 or four fine single liners, and a pair of  short cutters for working the corners. Always have two of each in the handles,.... one push and one pull cut. You know how the grain is always changing on nice wood. After one stock we don't try to reuse them. Could go on and on about checkering, but better not.
      Have used steel wool.... nothing coarser than 0000, and we found that it blurred the sharp crisp edges..like using wet paper off your finger tips rather than sanding blocks. What kind of stripper did you use to get the epoxy off of those Remington stocks?  5 stocks a week is hittin' it hard!
    Couple winters ago, we stocked a old LC Smith for a buddy of mine, and we finished it with one of those Slackum oil kits.  Tradition and all.... Won't be doing it again eny time soon. Nice looking, but a PITA. Like everyone, we tried Tru Oil....had good luck, but like Permalyn b est for built up finishes. Have you read all the hub bub about the Daley marine finishes that the big name guys are using now? If you have tried 'em, give us a holler back and tell us what ya think of them.... Will be stickin' with our Pro Custom Oil, and BLO.....  "Old Habits...."
 Have a good one , and thanks for the reply:
                                                                                          Best
                                                                                                  D.B.

 

[gunnut69]

That reply was a little scarey.. it sounds a lot like me.. First rifle was a 788 in 243 and while haevy it shot well. I checkered that sycamore wood and believe me it taught me a lot. Not one around these parts(central Missouri) did any chackering but as a lad I read all the rags amd wanted a fine rifle like O'connor or Keiths.. Bought a DemBart kit and checkered some boards.. and a couple of 22 rifles.. (only a little ashamed to sell those..).  The first patterns were the decals sold by Brownells.. Worked but the Kenneday books solution was a bunch better and cheaper to boot (was always broke, still am). Got tired of buying the Dembarts and tried the GunLine(I think it was) cutter. Was a V-shaped piece of steel with slots cut crosswise to form the cutters.. These could be resharpened. A bit dangerous at the end of a line but paid for itself many times by just being resharpenable, especially when recutting a grit filled pattern.. I like the FullView handles but switched to a S-1 cutter made from carbide and loved it..(still using it, can't seem to wear it out!!). Tried a 1/8 carbide for those really tight spots but poor results and still use the V-tools for the scroll ends. When I was really busy I bought a machine and used it for most layout and deepening with hand tools for finishing a job.. I use steel wool a lot but it takes a bit of getting used to.. I tried all the strippers of the Remington plastic finishes but all were poor then a was complainging to a friend ho was a chemist and he laughed at me.. The Remington plastic is a  'long chain polymer'. Easily broken down with heat.. A torch(propane) will boil the finish and it can be scraped off with almost not effort. I bought a lot of scrapers but still end up with an OldHickory butcher knife for most.. Don't try to get it all off, it'll drive you nuts but the heat has destroyed the plastic and what remains of the finish won't clog sandpaper so will be got after the initial sanding.. Be real careful around sharp edges and such and do small areas at a time.  I haven't used any Daley finishes but TruOil and the like are just oil based varnishes and marine varnishes just use a metaliic to let them live better in the sunlight.. I liked the permalyn finishes but the TruOil was cheaper and it lives better in the pot than anything else I tried. To lengthen the pot life I poke a hole (with a scribe) in the foil seal...or the metal cap(used to buy it in cans, pints I think). Drip out just what you need. The finish seems to last for  years with this limited oxygen access(and don't ask how the 'years' came about). I'm pretty much retired now but keep busy with family and personal projects.. I still checker a bit, just to make a little spending money.. It seems I've found a kindred spirit.. Have a great day!

[Dirt Bag]

Man,... I hear ya Gunnut. Was a time back in grade school when I thought Weatherby's were just slicker than owl s*&t, what with all them white line spacers and diamonds and all that shine..... You Know.... Had a Uncle (freind/ mentor/ comtemporarey) who was a pattern maker and always a scource of encouragement for my wood carving. He had joined the Outdoor Life book club, and I think he must have bought every book they offered, and when he had finished with them, he would give them to me and my few like minded buddies. I read and re read everything Jack OConner wrote. Also the old Gun Digest when John Amber was publisher. Remember the centerfolds of custom rifles? Remember how almost all of them were classic looking?  Spent hours looking at them and reading about them and to this day, that is still the style we try to emulate. Just looks RIGHT.       BUT..... The bible was the old Herters catalogs....we carried them to school to read in study hall. The principal was a hunter, shooter and outdoorsman, and was always supportive.  Everything in those catalogs that a guy could ever want., and where my first tools and supplies came from. Those were good times, and a couple bucks went a long way.
         Learned then to put my left thumbnail in the border and run the cutter up against it as a stop, and still do it that way, and always try to use a pull cutter and come away from the border rather than run up to it. The new gunsmith has an air powered checkering cutter he bought used, and set up for left hand which he is. I looked it over and it scares me... Just one miss slip and it might as well be a chain saw on that stock. All the Pros are using them, and swear by them. Guess I just always do things the hard way.
    Lot to be said for using scrapers not only to strip finish but also to smooth out and burnish the wood. Read somewhere that the old custom shop Winchesters were smoothed up with scrapers for the "extra finish" option, and I'm sure you've admired plenty of them.
   Always good talking gun work with other folks who do it..... That's where we have learned the most.

    Have a good one Gunnut, and thanks for the tip about using heat on the remmy epoxy.... bet it would work on Brownings too.
                                                                                            D.B.

[gunnut69]

About the checkering machine I tried an air powered one and one powered by a cable drive machine. Can't for the lide of me remember the name just now but a lot of smiths use'em. But for checkering the vibrations a killer.. I bought one that uses a tiny electric motor at the hand. The conbrol box just reduces the RPM's and switches from constant on to foot control switch. It runs 30-35,000 and sounds really baad but it's actually easier as it just about will NOT follow a grain.. The cutter just cuts thru almost anything.. even steel... but steels hard on it. checkered the straps on a Kahr .40 for a local lawdog(fed marshall) and sparks actually flew when the metal was engaged... Got it done OK but needed a re-sharpen afterward.. Probably done about 50 stocks + and it's at least 100% easier. Layout and finish up takes longer than the spacing and cut to depth.. Still a chore but the tedious part is what got easier. If you ever tried one you'd not go back.. Wish you were closer, I'd loan you mine for a couple weeks... The only drawback I've found is the price of the machine. Over a $1000(??) when I bought mine. They're likely worse now.. I bedded a lot of stocks with Herters compound and one is still steady after all these years.. And don't knock the Diamonds and white lines spacers.. First custom I built was a 1917 Enfield in 300 Win cut with a long throat. Can nearly use 300 weatherby load data.. Its not moved in nearly 35 years.. Dang that makes me feel old.. There was a gentleman here (OK gentleman maybe an exageration) who was a close friend of herters, he had manuscripts of the old Herters catalogs that George Herter sent him for criticism. After the catalog was out he got them back.. with a thank you! He died and his son stole and sold stuff and don't know where the catalogs went.. The boy died of an overdose..real shame. Joe and Herter were in the service together somehow..ordinance maybe don't remember. I bought a can of Johnsons paste wax for wood floors years ago and its nearly gone. Hope I last long enough to use it up..