Range Report.. 260 Rem, 35 Rem and 35 Whelen Imp

[quickdtoo]

Made another range trip today, I'm getting real tired of primer problems, used CCI 200 and 250 in all the loads today including some for my son to shoot in his Winchester model 670 30-06, he and I both had numerous misfires with the CCI 200s, most of mine went off in all three of mine, but not all of them did, and the CCI 250s that I test fired before loading them in the 260 were even worse, I gave up on the Berger loads which had the 250s with IMR4320, only 1 in 7 or 8 would fire and none on the first hammer fall, and that's after testing 5 of them that all fired at home before priming the cases with them!  Fortunately I also had two other batches loaded up with 120gr Sierras w/RL17 and CCI200, as well as 120gr Nosler BTs w/IMR4320 and CCI200, I had a several not fire, but worked on the second hammer fall, pin protrusion is .063" now, I think I'll increase it to .065" and test a bunch to see if that works, I have 800 of them left, hate to dump em. 

Now for the good news, all shooting done at 100yds btw.... I found great loads for all three rifles including excellent velocity with IMR4320 in the 20" 260 Rem Superligh and accuracy is there too!! The top load I made averaged 2921fps with the first two rounds overlapping and the third out an inch after the 2nd hammer fall, it may have been me loosing focus due to the misfire, or it could have been barrel heat, I was running later than I wanted and was shooting each rifle in quick turn to get thru the loads I had for them, I still didn't finish the 35Whelen loads, but that's for next time.



I finally got to shoot the Super 35 Rem loads(not for use in 35 Rem leverguns) that I made up last year using the 180gr SSP and IMR4198, all loads shot acceptably with a couple that stood out, the start load of 33.5gr ran 2176fps and shot real good with the first 2 touching and the 3rd out a little, but still under an inch. The top load of 38gr was a bit bigger, but still great and averaged 2458fps. It was real strange that none of the 35 Rem loads misfired, same CCI200 batch of primers, they were loaded about a year ago, same time as the loads that failed to fire in my sons 30-06 with Accubonds.




I loaded up some 200gr Remington PSPs for the 35 Whelen Improved with BL-C2, start load was 3363gr, it did ok, but 64grs did much better, velocity averaged 2683fps for that load, 66.5gr averaged 2799fps with a nice ~1" 3-shot group, primers are looking good, still have 67 and 67.5gr loads to shoot, but ran out of time. My huntin partner and I decided we're gonna put in for cow elk tags this year, if we get drawn, this will be my elk load. 

Tim









 

[dpe.ahoy]

Got some nice huntin loads there Tim.  The 260 looks real fine for a light weight barrel, and great velocity as well.  No problems on the 35 Rem as to primer mis-fires?  Hammer spring a little stronger on that frame?  Wonder if quality control went out the window as everyone was trying to keep up with demand.  DP

[quickdtoo]

I dunno, the primers got me baffled, I can see the 250s maybe being a problem, the 5 I tested went fine, maybe I was just lucky on them, I fully expected  them to not work, but they did, at least those 5.  The 260 has a Wolff spring in it as well as an old style low spur hammer, same for the 35 Rem, in fact the 35 Rem barrel is on the 30-30 Superlight frame that I shot last time, I had swapped the frame and stock out for the 35 Whelen because that stock was easy to put a Limbsaver on, I wasn't taking the Leadsled to the range then and didn't want to get beat up!! All the 30-30 loads worked fine with Rem 9½ primers, so maybe I'll switch to them, I have an unused  brick of them, I quit using them due to misfires with the other brick I have, may have been just weak hammer springs tho, that was before I started using Wolff springs and increasing pin travel.

Tim

[JerryKo]

Start load for 35 whelen imp was 33 grains?....

Looking real good there Tim.   I went with RL 19 in my 26" and 140 bergers.   Rem primers been OK.  Nice report.

Jerry

[Spanky]

Sucks about the FTF's. Hope you get it figured out.



Spanky

[Winter Hawk]

Hi Tim!

How is the firing pin dent on the non-igniting primers, kind of light? Are the primer pockets on the .260 a tad deep, so primer is moved forward by the firing pin blow, thus cushioning it?  Another thought, if the primer is seated deeper the firing pin may not be hitting them hard enough. Could there be any contamination (gun oil?) in the primer pockets which messed up the primers?  If the primers worked in the other calibers without problems, I would be taking a real close look at the .260 brass as being the culprit. 

Good luck, let us know what you discover!

-Kees-

[Fred M]

Tim
I quit using any CCI for the two Handi's. Federal, Winchesters and Remington work fine. Go and do the polishing of the fireing pin housing and polish the firing pin and reduce the pin return spring a couple of coils. This will give you at least 12oz more pin power. You be surprised  how much grud and burrs you can find.

[jim36]

+1 on Freds post. Since I have been using WW primers, I had had no problems what so ever. I once thought CCI was the way to go. But things have changed here lately. Maybe it's just me, but WW's are working great.  <")))><

[quickdtoo]

Start load for 35 whelen imp was 33 grains?....

Looking real good there Tim.   I went with RL 19 in my 26" and 140 bergers.   Rem primers been OK.  Nice report.

Jerry

Oops, typo, should be 63gr start, thanks Jerry. 

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Hi Tim!

How is the firing pin dent on the non-igniting primers, kind of light? Are the primer pockets on the .260 a tad deep, so primer is moved forward by the firing pin blow, thus cushioning it?  Another thought, if the primer is seated deeper the firing pin may not be hitting them hard enough. Could there be any contamination (gun oil?) in the primer pockets which messed up the primers?  If the primers worked in the other calibers without problems, I would be taking a real close look at the .260 brass as being the culprit. 

Good luck, let us know what you discover!

-Kees-

Pin strikes are nice and deep, in fact those that didn't fire, even after 2 or 3 strikes they looked liked they might be deep enough to penetrate the cup!! If my son didn't have trouble with them in his Winchester, I'd be more suspect of the hammer spring tho.  Primers are recessed less than .002", I primer with a Lee hand primer, so I can feel when they're fully seated, so that's not an issue. No problem with contamination on my part, brass was cleaned with alcohol on a paper towel after resizing before priming, I use One Shot, so it wouldn't cause a problem anyway and modern primers are hard to contaminate, even when intentionally trying to kill a primer, they still work. I think what I'll discover is those are just bad primers, it's gotta happen once in a while, just my luck, could be some are more susceptible to off center pin strikes too.

thanks,

Tim

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/killprimers.shtml

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/PrimerTest.htm

[quickdtoo]

Tim
I quit using any CCI for the two Handi's. Federal, Winchesters and Remington work fine. Go and do the polishing of the fireing pin housing and polish the firing pin and reduce the pin return spring a couple of coils. This will give you at least 12oz more pin power. You be surprised  how much grud and burrs you can find.

Thanks Fred, first I'm gonna test a bunch of the Rem primers in the fired brass before I clean the rifles and make sure they work well, wasting a couple dozen primers to make sure they're reliable will be worth it, if they FTF, then I'll R&R the pins. 

thx,

Tim

[quickdtoo]

+1 on Freds post. Since I have been using WW primers, I had had no problems what so ever. I once thought CCI was the way to go. But things have changed here lately. Maybe it's just me, but WW's are working great.  <")))><

I have a few hundred WW primers too, I'll test some of those too.....while the wife is gone shopping of course, she always hollers at me when I make noise in the basement!!! 

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Sucks about the FTF's. Hope you get it figured out.



Spanky

Me too Spanky, this is gettin old real fast.  I dropped the hammer enough times that I should not have come home with any unfired ammo!!

thx,

Tim

[Yak Angler]

Hi Tim,

I am am having the same problem with my CCI 200 primers and I also have about 900 left to use. They are much harder then other primers from what i can tell and i know I won't be buying them again. My .270 never had a misfire until i started handloading and using the cci 200's. At first i thought it was because i wasn't pulling the trigger all the way back because i started using reloads for the first time right after i did the trigger job and it breaks so clean and light now,  I thought that was it. Last time out to the range same problem even when slamming the trigger back. Firing pin seems to be hitting the snap cap just as hard as it ever did but still have the same problem with misfires. About 1 in 5 fail to fire even after rotating them etc. Picked up a box of cheapo winchester super x rounds all 20 fired not one misfire just for a comparison. Primer hits are much deeper on the factory winchester load then the CCI primed handloads. Primers are seated to exactly the same depth from what i can tell and head space appears the same as well.

[quickdtoo]

Sorry to hear that Adam, I'm getting good pin strikes now, but still FTF.  I did a bunch of testing today after polishing the firing pin and housing, as well as shortening the return spring as Fred suggested, I also swapped the hammer spring out for a new Wolff, I thought this frame had one in it, but I usually mark them with paint so I know it's a Wolff, but this one wasn't painted and the new Wolff seems much stouter in comparison. I couldn't extend the pin stroke any further, the transfer bar is already pushing it as far as it can, the only way to increase it would be to add material to the face of the pin where the t-bar hits it. I checked a few other frames and most hammers stop against the frame before the firing pin runs out of travel, but some don't, so changing the face of the hammer may or may not work to extend pin protrusion. I also measure a bunch of pin lengths looking for a longer pin, they're all about .775", so no joy there.

I tried Win and Rem LR primers, still got 5 or 6 no fires out of 15, same with CCI 200 and 250, some popped on the second hammer fall, some wouldn't fire at all. I'm beginning to think I either have a bunch of spoiled primers because of the humidity in the basement, or the off center pin strike is at fault, possibly a combination of both, I don't know. Out of desperation as an after thought,  I tried the 6 CCI 200s in the last batch that didn't fire after 2 hammer falls in another Handi, they all fired, the pin strike is slightly off center also, but not as much as on the 260. So I'm going to try the 260 barrel on some other frames to see if the pin strike will be more centered and if that helps, that's the next step before buying new primers. 


Tim

[Fred M]

Hi Tim
A little off center pin strike should not really cause a FTF. But it could. Excessive head space could. I although reduced the hammer radious by shorten the hammer tip and filed the hammer extension to slide it down where it almost touches the Opening latch butten.

This increases rotational hammer speed.
All these little things helps ignition.

The recess tip of the hammer notch should be about the same as the tranfer bar thickness +0.005", so the transfer bar gets slamed against the frame and the firing pin gets full penetration. A bit of metal removal on the hammer tip may help.

I been through all that myself, but had since no more FTF.
It is a chicken sh-- system but once you got it tuned it works without trouble.

[quickdtoo]

Thanks Fred, but I have a Winchester model 94 extension on an old style low spur hammer on this rifle, it puts good pin strikes on the primers, they're just off center a bit more than usual which I suspect is the problem, tomorrow I'll put it on another frame that might change the pin strike location, if FTFs go away, it'll confirm the pin strike location is the problem, headspace isn't a problem, brass is sized to be perfectly flush with the chamber face, if it's even .001" above the face, it won't fully lock up leaving a slight gap between barrel and breech face.

I did check the other two frames that I used Thursday, they only have .042" and .044" pin projection which may account for the problems with them which had fewer FTFs on the CCI primers than the 260, none that didn't fire on the 35 Whelen, although a few took two hammer falls, and 3 on the 35 Rem that wouldn't fire after a few hammer falls, I'll be working on those frames too to see if the Rem and Win primers will fire instead of using the CCI200s, got lots of primers, just need to get em to work!! 

Tim

[quickdtoo]

I fitted the 260 barrel to a different frame, swapped out all the internal parts of the trigger/hammer group, this frame has less pin protrusion at .055", so I was a little apprehensive, but for naught..... I primed all the brass again, 15  CCI 200 and 15 CCI 250, all fired on the first hammer fall, pin strikes a just slightly off center, but they all worked!!  So I owe another apology to those that have questioned off center pin strikes as a reason for FTFs, if it's too far off center, it may very well cause a problem. I'm still curious why my 444 Marlin has a very off center pin strike and it's never failed to fire with Rem 9½ in all three loads I've shot in it, about 100 rounds, and it only has .045" pin protrustion.    I'll try 15 of those and see if maybe those primers are spoiled, I've had them the longest,  SW used to carry them off and on, so I stocked up when they had them.

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Good news, it appears the 1800 Rem primers I have are good to go, I increased the pin protrusion on the 35 Whelen Imp to .055" and primed a batch of Whelen brass, all of it fired, so the Whelen is good to go too, now I just need to do the 35 Rem frame, I'll do another range trip in the next week of so, got to shoot the IMR4320 Berger loads that didn't fire last time. 

Tim

[Yak Angler]

I'm glad to hear you are going to get away with using those CCI 200's. If i wasn't north of the border I would have mailed you a pack of mine to try out as i know they are good primers just not in my rifle. Atleast that way you could eliminate the primer batch as being the problem but it looks like your good to go now with the .260 on a different frame.

[quickdtoo]

Unfortunately even if you were here in the US you couldn't ship primers, they're hazmat and require a hazmat license to ship via UPS or Fedex ground, primers, ammo and powder aren't mailable either, but thanks for the thought Adam. 

Tim