777 the Wrong Choice for Revolvers?

[flmason]

Been looking the data over for 777 and Pyrodex P.

Looks like 777 could produce higher velocities, volume for volume... but the limit on the amount of powder lets you generate more velocity (granted with more powder) with Pyrodex P.

So seems like 777 might just be a way to wear the gun out sooner with hotter temperatures and a higher pressure spike? Generally speaking, I avoid smokeless powders like Bullseye in my smokeless handguns for the same reason.

Anyone else see it that way too?

I'm having a hard time seeing the value in 777 if this is the case.

Thought I'd get everyone's opinions before relegating the 777 to my inline and buying some Pyrodex for the '58 Remmy.

P.S. I've noticed most "Remington" flasks throw a 24 grain charge by volume. Anyone know if that's historically correct? Would seem to leave the Army Colt's and Remmy's at the low end of the .38 special range ballistically, rather than near the .45 Long Colt at 40 gr. BP + 250 gr. conical.

[Pat/Rick]

General Information section of DGW catalog lists 28grains as the origional loading for Colt's and Remmies. I am not sure if the repro flasks and spouts are under charged for liability reasons. IIRC that loading should be about 100fps slower than a standard load in .45acp.

[Draxx]

 Although 777 does indeed claim to produce about 15% more velocity and one would assume pressure then an equivalent charge of Pyrodex  P, I simply load a tad less 777 when I am using it, so I break about even on velocity and I assume wear and tear.

 I generally use a sput that throws about 28 grain for Pyrodex and one that throws around 24 for 777 with no problems thus far. I have found 777 to be a bit cleaner to clean up then Pyrodex and you use less per shot, so not all bad..just my opinion tho, I could be wrong.

[flmason]

Although 777 does indeed claim to produce about 15% more velocity and one would assume pressure then an equivalent charge of Pyrodex  P, I simply load a tad less 777 when I am using it, so I break about even on velocity and I assume wear and tear.

 I generally use a sput that throws about 28 grain for Pyrodex and one that throws around 24 for 777 with no problems thus far. I have found 777 to be a bit cleaner to clean up then Pyrodex and you use less per shot, so not all bad..just my opinion tho, I could be wrong.

I see your point. If reduced 15%, as recommended, perhaps it is a wash. What caught my attention was that the 35 gr. max load of Pyrodex P produced a higher velocity, whereas the 25 gr. max load of 777 a lesser velocity. I drew some conclusions from that, though I don't know they are correct.

1. Even though 777 is intended to produce more energy, it may produce it with pressures that prevent using that potential in a repro revolver.

2.  Because the max load is less than Pyrodex P *and* the velocity is less I get the feeling the pressures (and possibly temps) are significantly higher, but with no gain in effectiveness for it's use. That I'd be better off in terms of killing power, to use the Pyrodex P and accept that a greater volume will be neccessary. Not a new phenomenon. Smokeless Bullseye or even Unique compare to 2400 when used in a .44 mag in the same way.

3. Perhaps the real intended use for 777 is in guns designed to actually withstand it's use. Say 209 inlines and the like.

I wish manufacturers would just come out and say these things though, rather than leaving us to guess.

Given my goal is to maximize the on target effectiveness while staying within the gun's limits, I'm thinking the Pyrodex P option is the better choice. Whereas, if I was looking to use less powder for just target shooting, maybe 777 would be the better choice. Same rationale as making target loads with Bullseye with 3 gr. of powder but hunting loads with 20 grains of 2400. IIRC 20 grains of Bullseye would be seriously over pressure in a .44 mag.

But you get the idea. Bullseye is so "hot" you can't use much of it, and this limits the ultimate velocity you can achieve. 2400 is more progressive and slower burning, so, though you have to use more of it... you can get a higher ultimate velocity out of it. Or so I believe anyway.

Seems 777 is in that same category. Unless I exceed Hodgdon's recommended 25 gr. I can't get the same velocity at Pyrodex P.

For me personally, I'm thinking that makes it an incorrect choice since the intended use of the gun is hunting rather than paper punching.

Sound like I'm barking up the wrong tree?

P.S. Anyone have any experience leaving a revolver loaded with 777 for long periods? I'm wondering if it's composition is inherently corrosive? I've read in the forums here of folks sealing standard black with beeswax and not having corrosion problems. But I believe I once read 777 is citric acid based? Sounds like a bad combination with gun steel.

[Draxx]

 I do see your point Flmason. I use mine strictly for hunting wily tin cans and targets, so I am trying both flavors of powder. I was given about 1/2 pound of 777 by a buddy who loads it in his .38 shells for CAS.

 Given that it is more expensive then Pyro p, I think even the argument that you use less maybe a wash. It is easier to clean up, but really, that is not a big issue for me, I don't mind cleaning up my guns, that is half the fun (I tell myself).

 When I am low on both Pyro and 777 I will have to make a moral decision on what to buy, and I am leaning towards more Pyro P myself. It works in my revolver and sidelock pistols and hasn't failed me yet

[Cowpox]

I like the real black for use in my revolvers.

However, I do keep a jug of 777 in the cabinet, and use it in my carry revolver on extended hunting/fishing/camping trips.

The only real advantage of 777 is the fact that it's fouling is far less corrosive than other substitutes or the real black.

In the field, it does not require the full soap and water routine.

Field cleaning can be done with patch and oil (777 and oil does not cause asphalt), just as you would do with your smokeless revolvers, without complete disassembly.

Some of these outings can last close to a month, and I have never found corrosion, whether or not it has been fired, even in hot, humid weather.

[coyotejoe]

 T7 has a higher brisance or shattering effect than black powder and is indeed harder on a revolver. This is entirely separate and apart from chamber pressure. To describe the effect of brisance lets say we compare a single drop of nitroglycerin to a pound of blackpowder. The blackpowder may release considerably more total energy, that is to say it has more power, but the nitro will shatter a rock which the black would only toss into the air.

[AtlLaw]

brisance or shattering effect

I have always wondered about that phenomenon!      I also have never researched it!      Now you've given me the perfect starting point!     Thanks CJ!