Author Topic: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them  (Read 7861 times)

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Offline carronader

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2010, 01:59:46 AM »
Douglas , that cannon is Russian.  Sits on the approach to Ely Cathredal (near Cambridge) went to look around Cathredal   didn't know cannon was there. It's suffered from weathering.Only had American 100's cigarettes and Dragon Claw to give idea of size. Translation from Trunnions is...............
 Alekandr Zavod = Alexander Arms / Cannon factory 
 Derevna Gaskoich = Village of Gaskoich     ( A major factory producing from 1773/74 until end of 19th Century ) 
  Dated = 30th February   rest of date couldn't make out. 
 will post more pics.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline carronader

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2010, 02:22:43 AM »
n 1773, they started the construction of Alexander cast-iron and cannon factory, and in just a year it yielded its first, and rather high-quality, products. There was a good reason why Field Marshall Suvorov himself praised them when coming to the plant with an inspection. By :the behest of Catherine II, in 1777 the settlement of Peter’s plant got the status of a town, and in 1781 it became capital of Olonets province (from 1784 — Olonets County). The first Governor of the area was Gavrila Derzhavin, a poet and a grandee. The first years of Petrozavodsk are still represented by the buildings of the historical center of the city, i. e. architectural ensembles of the Round (Lenina) and Sobornaya (Kirova) Squares. In 1785, Petrozavodsk had 327 wooden and 32 stone buildings, and 318 merchants lived in the city. 
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2010, 02:26:34 AM »
Ray, That looks like a light French gun on a Bethleham carrage. Bethleham made carriages but not cannon.
Max

Offline Zulu

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2010, 04:21:24 AM »
Is that an original carriage?  Could that gun shoot on that?  It seems light for such a large barrel.
Zulu
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2010, 08:45:17 AM »
Is that an original carriage?  Could that gun shoot on that?  It seems light for such a large barrel.
Zulu

That's a display carriage provided by the British.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2010, 01:23:40 PM »
yes they are so very very tiny , I was almost tempted to put them in my pockets before I left  ;D
but I had my car keys in one pocket so I couldnt
the exact weight is  "ONLY"  41875 and 41790 lbs

do you really mean that there isnt any 15" left in usa today ?? thats a pity
ok that this 2 ended up here in sweden I can understand , but how could the other come to hong kong ??
the one in hk , is that  short or long barrel ??

     Yes, Dan, I really mean it; there is not even one left in the US today.  None of the source materials we checked could tell us how that one, large 15" Dahlgren was shipped to Hong Kong.  From The Artilleryman magazine, Vol. 28, No. 4, in an article by Gary Brown we know that, The Hong Kong Coastal Defense Museum displays 350 years of coastal defense artillery including our long lost, 15" Dahlgren.  After writing about a 10" seacoast gun, Gary writes this about the Big Dahlgren:  "The other barrel is an even larger 43,030 Lb. American 15-inch smooth-bore muzzle-loading gun dating back to the 1860s  It was designed by John Dahlgren of the US Navy, cast at Fort Pitt Foundry and is stamped  "FP No. 51."  The barrel was on the USS Catawba, which was later sold to Peru.  The warship was scuttled in the war between Peru and Chile in the late 1800s and presumed sunk off the coast of South America.  In May 1988, however, it was dredged from the waters near Hung Hom Bay in Kowloon near Hong Kong.  How it ended up half way across the world remains a naval "mystery"."

     The weight indicates this was a long tube, 15" Dahlgren, as does the casting date of 1864 and the higher registry no. of 51.   This gun was inspected by E.M.Y., Edward M. Yard, 1864 to 1866 at FPF.

Tracy and Mike
    
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dan610324

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2010, 02:24:16 PM »
wow thats really an interesting story
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2010, 02:59:00 PM »
According to the National Registry, the Dahlgren now owned by the Hong Kong Coastal Defense Museum is a XV-inch Bureau of Ordnance Long Cannon of 43,000 pounds; this gun was 177-inches long. The two guns that were gifted to Filipstad are both XV-inch Dahlgren Short Cannon of 42,000 pounds, and are 161-inches long. I've never been able to locate a source that explained how the Hong Kong museum finally ended up with the Dahlgren "Long" 15-incher. Check out reply no.8 on this earlier BPMC thread; http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,183684.msg1098900012.html#msg1098900012
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Jax

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2010, 05:52:18 PM »
What a cool thread!  Now I have to go thru all my pictures to find some of my cannon pics.  Got a cool one of my son sitting on a big bronze cannon in our family cemetery in NY.
Justin

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2010, 02:37:47 AM »
JAX,
Where is the, "family cemetery in N Y" ?

Rich
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Offline Jax

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2010, 01:28:39 PM »
Sorry, Im a little slow :)

Its in Waverly, NY  not a private place, but we have many members in there.  The Cannon is placed in the center of the Cemetery on a knoll aimed at the entrance.  If anyone is familiar with the area, there is a state park not far from there that is a Revolutionary war battle field.  Huge cannons were up there as well.  Newtown Battlefield.  http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/107/details.aspx  There is also a MANY places in this area that have memorials with cannons displayed.  
I found this link for the pictures I am attaching. http://www.tiogacountyveterans.org/6.html  

I know I have more shots of that area, but I just cant seem to find them.  Theres a Civil War Memorial in the town square of Owego that has 4 Mortars is I remember correctly.  I'll keep digging.  

EDIT:  the pictures are not of the cemetery where my family is, but in Owego, NY  the link will tell all about that plot
Justin

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2010, 03:10:26 PM »
Interest how much energy these feral youths will expend tipping over head stones, when you can't get them to simply hike-up their pants or push a pencil to do homework.

Richard
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Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2010, 03:19:28 PM »
Mike & Tracy,
I'll probably mosey over there this summer. Do you want pictures and stat's if you haven't already been there for them?

Richard
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2010, 11:40:42 AM »
      Richard the Beneficent,    Your generosity and charity are exceeded only by the stunning beauty of your wonders in wood.  Thank you so much for the offer.  I am working on your list this evening and if I stay up all night it may be completed by dawn.   ;) ;)  Most of what lies in that Southern Tier area of New York State is field artillery which we usually document with a snapshot or two when we find it, but there are a few large seige mortars and some seacoast artillery here and there which we would love to see pics of.  For the field artillery admirers we will include a few of the best to be found in that area too.

Tracy and Mike

     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2010, 12:36:18 PM »
Get it to me by snail or E and my wife and I will get on the case as much as time will allow. Snail would be best. I'll post you my address now.

Richard
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2010, 08:02:47 PM »
                                                   Trumansburg Seacoast Gun, a 300 Pdr. Parrott Rifle.

     In the autumn of 2008, after visiting with Dominick Carpenter in eastern Pennsylvania, we headed for Harrisburg are and then Route 15 North to the New York border.  We had three items on our itinerary as we traveled north to the New York State throughway and we planned to do all of them.  First we stopped and toured the Corning Museum of Glass in Corning, NY.  I remembered the Mt. Palomar reflecting mirror from a grade school trip 55 years ago and the rest of the museum was just as impressive.  Then we headed north to Watkins Glen, a place of racing legend and a place where I went as a child with my family when we lived in Canaseraga, NY.  The Glen, located at the southern end of Seneca Lake, is a place of mystery and legend with lots of waterfalls, caves, reflecting pools, tunnels and cliffs.

     The main purpose of this leg of our trip was to study the big, 10" Parrott Rifle in Trumansburg, NY, something we have wanted to do for about 10 years.  So we headed north to a small cemetery on the western shore of another of New York's famous "Finger Lakes", Cayuga Lake, about 20 miles north of Ithaca, NY which is at the southern end of the lake.  It took 20 minutes or so to find the small cemetery where this largest of Civil War, Union, rifles was located.  This cemetery was old and, as such, it was off the newer, main road.  We inquired at a tire store, and the owner knew right where it was.  We saw it up on a ridge close to the cemetery's middle; it was very prominent and imposing, even in the colors of the overcast sky that October day.  Although it was an Army, (Seacoast), piece, with almost all markings on the muzzle face, it was painted a Navy, haze-gray, color.  

     After taking photos and making notes, we headed north once again for an exploratory trip through many western New York towns on the way to Erie, Pennsylvania.  We checked out Seneca Falls, Waterloo, Geneva, Canandaigua, Lima, Batavia, Buffalo and Erie, Penn. where we visited the Erie Maritime Museum once again.  It’s small, but a real gem!  Then we went south to Meadville, Penn. And then east to Titusville, Penn. Where oil was first extracted from the Drake well built specifically for that purpose, rather than like the salt wells, which were plentiful in this area.  We came to the object of our quest at the west side of that town on the William Finn Highway, Woodlawn Cemetery.

Tracy and Mike


A demonstration of glass blowing was very interesting and the art glass they make is very beautiful.




Watkins Glen is noted for car racing and it's famous Glen, a geological wonder.  This part of the main ravine looks like a modern representation of a topo map.




This 1861 Seacoast and Navy 10" Parrott Rifle is probably the most photographed seacoast Parrott of all time.  It appears in at least several books on artillery that we know of and probably a few coffee table books as well.  The markings are exceptionally clear and crisp.




Several features distinctive to the large Parrott rifles can be seen here.  The largest breech radius is a partial hemisphere, it's origin being under the reinforce an inch or so.  The inserted cascabel block which forms one-half the breeching hole and the entire elevation-screw collar retaining-bolt hole is, itself retained in the cascabel jaws by the bolt coming down from the cascabel top.  The wrought iron reinforcing band in view here weighed in excess of 5,000 pounds on this large seacoast rifle.




Pi tapes, (measuring tapes which read circumferential measurements as diameters) are very expensive, so we bought a plain flat tape measure which can wrap around a circular shape or, in this case be inserted into one.  It reads out in circumference distance, but you divide by 3.1416 to get the diameter of the circle easily.




Here I measure the circle that the markings are on.




All the muzzle markings are as clear as they were when struck in 1866.  The fifteen groove rifling is .100" deep and is a R.H. Gain Twist type going from one turn in zero to one turn in 30 feet.  R.M.H. was Richard M. Hill, Army Ordnance Inspector, 1861-1876.





Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Jax

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2010, 05:16:46 PM »
Neat trip!  I grew up just south of Ithaca.  We went to that Glen a lot  :)  Also, I didnt know that gun was up there or I would have checked that out too.  I guess thats on the list when I visit home next! 
Justin

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2010, 07:03:58 AM »
     It's a small world, Jax!  In the summer of '66 I worked for the NYS Conservation Department at a Conservation Education Camp near Cuba, NY.  One of the 13 to 15 year old campers was so thrilled with his instruction on stream improvement and trout habit enhancement that he gave me a cowboy hat on the last day of camp as a thank you gift.  He lived in Horseheads, NY.  I bet you know where that town is!

     Back to historically significant cannons, for about 25 years now, Mike and I have been interested in the story of Fort Pulaski in Georgia.  We have made three visits to this island fortress located about 17 miles east of Savannah, Georgia where the Savannah River meats the Atlantic Ocean.  It remains our favorite fort.  A Third System masonry fort designed by Simon Bernard, a noted French Military Engineer, hired by President James Madison, this fort was located on swampland in the middle of the Savannah River called Cockspur Island.  It took a West Point graduate who later became very famous during the Civil War to design and build a drainage system of canals, sluice-ways and moats before the cypress log grillage could be laid down for a foundation.  His name was Robert E. Lee and the year was 1829. 

     He came back early in 1862 as a Confederate Army commander to help the garrison prepare for the coming Federal assault from Captain Quincy Gilmore's Artillery and Infantry troops.  Gilmore's breeching batteries had been built on Big Tybee Island and were located from slightly less than one mile to about two miles away from the fort.  36 big guns had been emplaced, and despite being denied a 15" Rodman Gun, he had 5 big James conversion rifles made from the old 42pdr, 32pdr, and 24pdr smooth bore seacoast guns, rifled with the James System rifling, they were delivered to Capt. Gilmore as 2  84pdrs, 2  64pdrs and 1  48pdr, also he received 5  30pdr. Parrott rifles.  These were all emplaced in his closest batteries, McClellan and Sigel at only 1,650 yards from the south- east salient of the fort.  Backing up these 'highest technology artillery weapons', Gilmore had a bunch of 8 and 10 inch Columbiads and a whole bunch of 13" Seacoast Mortars, M1861.

     Confederate Colonel Olmstead had only 14 guns in the fort which could bear on the powerful Federal breeching batteries.  Two of them were rifles with which to bombard the Federals, 4.5" Blakely Seacoast Rifles mounted on Wooden, Seacoast, Center Pintle, Barbette Carriages mounted upon the Terraplein.  Unfortunately for the Confederate artillerymen, the Terraplein became untenable shortly after the federal bombardment began at 8:10 A.M. on April 10, 1862.  By 12 Noon on the following day the 8 foot thick walls of the fort's south-east corner had been pierced and the ammunition was changed to 84pdr. and 64pdr. shells which went through the enlarging hole and skipped across the parade ground to slam into the dirt berm and masonry wall which protected the main magazine where 40, 000 pounds of gunpowder was stored.  They then exploded, removing critically needed protective dirt and masonry.  Commander Olmstead held out until the heavy door of the magazine showed the effects of shell fragments and, only at that time, surrendered the fort and garrison at 2:30 P.M., just about 30 hours after the bombardment began.  Federal troops repaired only the southeast corner, and today you can still see hundreds of holes and shell craters, the effect of that 30 hour bombardment on the walls of Fort Pulaski, Georgia.

     We always wondered what those big James conversion rifles looked like.  Now we were about to find out!  Woodlawn Cemetery in Titusville, Pennsylvania was easy to find, and the big rifle on a hill toward the center of the cemetery was not hard to find either.  They have a very nice example of the 42 Pdr. Seacoast Gun at the Tredegar Foundry Museum in Richmond, Virginia mounted vertically.  Standing next to it, you can really judge it's large size.  This was the raw material Ames and other northern foundries used to create these James conversion rifles early in the war, before Parrott could turn out quantities of his large, gain-twist-rifled, seacoast guns.  Enjoy the pics.

Tracy and Mike


Taken just after the battle by a photographer who was about half way between the fort and the muzzle of the large, 84pdr James Rifle in battery McClellan on Lazaretto creek, Big Tybee Island.  The fatal breeches can be seen clearly.  Big shells passed through these and threatened the forts main magazine with it's 40,000 pounds of gunpowder!




The large James rifle in the Titusville cemetery fired these James bolts and shells.  The 'Birdcage' design is unique and expensive, but functioned well.  The ribs were covered by lead, tin and greased canvas which, due to the hollow base, were pressurized upon firing and forced into the cannon's rifling.




Mike studies the markings on the right trunnion.  You can see that this James System conversion rifle was banded.  Not all of these were.  There are 4  84pdr. conv. rifles in Mansfield, Ohio, none of which are banded, two 16 groove and two 18 groove James conversions.  These were pre-war or very early war conversions.  Banding was quickly determined to be necessary for durability of these guns.




No doubt this conversion started life as a U.S. M1845 42pdr. Seacoast Gun.




Measuring the cylindrical reinforcing band diameter at the vent, we get a 82.5" circumference reading with our flat tape and divide by Pi (3.1416) and get a calculated 26.26" diameter.  Unconverted, the M1845 42pdr. would have been 23.0" dia. in this area, but the thickness of the reinforcing band was close to 1.75 thick, so the breech area of the original 42 pdr. tube must have been turned down to a little under 22.5" dia. for this to be possible.




This shot gives you the registry number, 120 and the number of grooves, 9 and the inspector's initials, B.H.  We forgot to measure the width of those rifling grooves and to look up the inspector's name.  Anybody know?  Depth of rifling is just over 1/16 inch, about .070".




Close-up of the James System rifling.




The breech ring and the vent field have both been turned off during lathe ops. to make room for the shrink fit, wrought iron, reinforcing band.




The original tube, a M1845 42pdr. (7") sooth bore Seacoast Gun was cast at West Point Foundry in Cold Spring, NY under the direction of Robert Parker Parrott.  The foundry number was 137.




On the left trunnion face we see the date of casting.


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2010, 11:56:27 AM »
So if I banded and rifled My Cairo gun I would have one of these? 

Are there any pictures of these guns in battery for the siege?  What carriage did they use?

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2010, 12:41:05 PM »
     We always appreciate your comments, Double D.  They are most often insightful and to the point.  Yes, you are right, you would have one of these if you banded and rifled your M1845 42pdr. seacoast gun.  If I remember correctly there were a few of these big James conversion rifles onboard the Cairo, but they were the unbanded type like the 4 in downtown Mansfield, Ohio.  I read quite a detailed account of the Federal investment of Fort Pulaski several times and recall clearly that these large 84 and 64pdr. James System rifles were mounted on iron carriages of the size used to mount 8 and 10 inch Columbiads also supplied, because very little timber of the size necessary was available on Big Tybee.  Several of the carriages were partially broken with popped rivets as they were tossed into the surf on the northeast tip of Big Tybee Island from government barges which were ferried south from the artillery supply depot at Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.  This is where the guns came from as well.

     We have not found any pictures of the siege batteries on Big Tybee at all, which is really too bad, and, unfortunately, none of the Confederate guns before the battle and none of the fort before the battle either, although there must be one or two out there somewhere.

     So when will you be needing this iron carriage and rifling work completed?  We know a couple of guys who do that sort of thing quite well.   ;D ;D

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Jax

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Re: Cannons, Like Gold, Are where You Find them
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2010, 06:38:12 AM »
SeaCoast, I know right where Horseheads is !!  my wife always makes fun of the name when we fly into that airport out there.... 
   I have always had an eye out for cannons when I was growing up in that area.  Now that im trapped in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, theres not much to see around these parts.....  My wifes family lives around Pilot Knob, MO.  Theres a Civil war battle field there known for its cannon battle.  I know many people who dig cannon balls around that area.  I hope to find my own in November when I go up there to hunt.  (pending snow  ;D )   I actually Metal Detected the edge of the battle field last time I was there and didnt find anything from that time period.   My wifes uncle met some guy who digs cannon balls up in his garden all the time   :o , how great would that be!!! 

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/misc/pilotknob1.htm

If anyone is intrested, they are having the reenactment of this battle on September 25-26, 2010.
http://www.missouri-vacations.com/missouri-festivals-events/reenactment-battle-pilot-knob.htm
Justin