Author Topic: Ladder technique  (Read 835 times)

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Offline Trav

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Ladder technique
« on: June 05, 2010, 12:46:52 PM »
Does anyone here use the Ladder Technique for load development?  I have done it only once, and it worked well.  I have been looking at opinions and there seems to be a great difference of opinion as to it's effectiveness. 

What technique do you use? 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2010, 01:03:09 PM »
I don't really know what a "ladder technique" is tho I've seen a few folks mention it in the last year or so. Who came up with that name or when I dunno. I try to avoid ladders personally as I have a habit of falling off them when I try climbing up one.

Once upon a long time ago I'd pick one or more bullets and one or more powders (usually 2-3 of each) and load up three or six of each bullet/powder combo from the starting load to book max load at one grain or half grain intervals depending on what seemed appropriate for that load. I'd then drive off to the range and begin shooting them on paper lowest to highest and see how accurate they were.

I've stopped doing that for several reasons really one is that I now have my own personal shooting range in the back yard. Another reason is quite often I found that in my guns with my components some of them just seemed way too hot with sticking bolts and blown primers and such even tho they were within the book limits.

So these days I still do basically the same thing with some exceptions. I no longer start at the starting load as I've never yet found that to be my most accurate load and I'd not be satisfied with that velociy most likely even if it was most accurate.

So now I compare several manuals making sure what is the acceptable range of powder charges and pick one just below half way up and start there. I load six rounds of my chosen bullet/powder and take it to the range and shoot groups and then decide if that one is worth trying again and whether to move up to more powder or not. It's still basically the same method just that I don't have so many loads to pull the bullets on this way and I don't tend to waste as many bullets on starting loads I already know aren't gonna be my final load anyway.

Since I dunno what a ladder technique is I'm not sure if that's what you are asking about or not but it's the general method I've used for at least 40 years and I don't really have a name for it. I sure don't climb any ladders in the process tho.  ;D


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Offline PowPow

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2010, 01:48:55 PM »
I use the ladder technique.

It works for me for finding the optimal powder charge for a given recipe; particular gun with a particular, bullet, powder, primer, brass.
Does not tell you anything about how one recipe performs against another.

I shoot single shots and am looking for that cold barrel precision shot.
Ladder technique allows me to find the sweet spot with fewer shots, meaning more "between shot" cooling time for a limited range session, which is usually from after work til dark.

If I were a p-dog shooter, I might want a load that shoots sweet with a hot barrel, and I would do what GB describes.
His way is a lot more fun.
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Offline necchi

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2010, 02:31:30 PM »
+1 to PowPow,,it saves me time an powder,,helps find the "nodes" where everything works best, usually more than one curve.

 Then I can go back and narrow it down. Works for me. ;D
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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2010, 02:58:35 PM »
Anyone care to give more detail on exactly what the ladder technique is? I used to reload a bit but haven't in many years. I'm thinking of getting back into it and this may possibly be a good thing.
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Offline necchi

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 04:14:03 PM »
Oh boy, I ain't a good explainer.
 You have to begin with the premise that an accurate round in the gun is a combination of several issues; projectile, charge, twist and internal velocity. All in conjunction with barrel/rifle motion, comming together in harmonics.
 Let's example; a given load will start at say 30grn with a max of 40grns. One way is to load 5 at 30-30.5-31-31.5-32,,,up to 40 all the while watching for pressure signs,,this can/could take up too 60-70 rounds to find one that groups well. let's say that it's 36.5,,now you go back and try 36.4 another 36.5 and 36.7,,more shooting, powder and bullets. Of course experianced loaders can narrow that down.

 With a ladder you load 20 rounds each with a different charge, let's say in .4grn increments, 30.0-30.4-30.8-31.2-31.6,,,again the experianced loader can narrow it down and perhaps use smaller increments, but you still need the 20.
 Now you go out to as far as you can shoot, 200-300 is best. Put up a large target and use a spotting scope because you'll need log each shot on a seperate paper at the bench. Begin shooting the spread and mark/note each shot, when you examine the complete target there will be at least one or more groups of shots in the spread that will be near each other in the horizontal plain (ya don't worry about left/right), these will represent the "range" of powder charge that is in the harmonic "node" your gun prefers for that combination, then you can go back and check/fine tune those loads.

Here's a good explanation;
http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/laddertest.explanation.html#Laddertest
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Offline KansasPaul

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2010, 04:36:29 PM »

I have used the ladder techinique for load development.  I first came accross the process when I was having trouble with finding a load that worked in my AR.  The explanation is fairly long but once you understand the process it's easy.  You can do a google search titled "reloading ladder method" and a little digging will provide you with info.  The link below has some great information and accompanying photos.

http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4300&PN=1

When working on my .223 I loaded 20 bullets starting 10% below a max load and worked my way down in .5 grain increments.  Label each of your bullets 1 through 20 and keep a record of the powder weight for each of the 20 bullets.  Set up a target down range and have a duplicate target next to you.  Fire the rounds one at a time and mark on your copy, where the bullets hit on the target where you were shooting.  Once finished shooting, mark the corresponding bullets holes 1 through 20.  Look for groupings where 3 or 4 rounds were the closest - this is going to be the sweet spot for your rifle.

Once you find the sweet spot you can continue further development.

Offline PowPow

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2010, 05:36:33 PM »
I load 10 bullets from max down in 1% increments:
22250 maxes at about 40 grains, so .4 gr increments, 30-06 uses about 50-60 grains so .5 grain increments.
On the second go-round, I will load 3 each for the sweet spot and +1/2% and -1/2%. I should probably do 6 each.
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Offline calvon

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2010, 08:06:11 PM »
A bit of refinement perhaps...........

During your first go-round, seat the bullets as far out as your rifle will tolerate. The throat depth or the magazine length will determine the longest OAL your particular rifle and particular bullet will tolerate. Adjust the seater stem of your seater die so that there is a minimal jump between the bullet and the lands.

Run your test and determine the "sweet spot".

Then shoot a group with loaded that way. Then turn the seater stem down, say half a turn, load five shots and shoot another group. Turn the seater stem down again and load and shoot five more. After awhile you will discover one group is tighter than all the others and that is your super sweet spot for that rifle, that powder charge, that bullet, and that seating depth.

And besides, it gives you another excuse to get out of the house for some of the best recreation you'll ever have.......................

Offline rugerfan.64

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2010, 01:03:30 PM »
http://www.optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#

heres you a link to another method. Not to confuse anyone,just another option. Havent tried it yet but it makes sense

Offline necchi

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2010, 04:31:31 PM »
 Interesting,,round robin shooting has merit, I've seen it described before. And he does make a vaild argument for his OCW vrs Auddete, because it narrows the human error aspect, now that it's summer hot here in Minn I do see/feel myself getting a bit of shooting fatigue in an extended session, + you can do it at 100.
 To be honest, Chris Long's work is very in depth and very accurate, but WAY over the top for most folks to grasp, let alone fully read. I beleive his stuff, it's like Varment Al's work,,with a Doctorate degree,  :D
 I've bookmarked the link thanks,  ;D
 I'll be working up a load with some 165 BTSP in my 308 soon, I'll try this method and see what happens. I don't want to limit myself to just ONE way of doing things, if that happens it leaves little room for growth
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Offline Trav

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2010, 06:30:01 PM »
Thanks for the inputs.  I have tried most of these techniques over the span of my reloading.  I just have never come up with a technique that I really liked, that did not require me to spend a small fortune getting the best load.  I quess part of my problem is that I am always feeling that it is possible to get an even better load, so I keep changing things up to see if I can find a load better than my previous load.  I have one 22-250 that I have started from stratch 3 different times to find that perfect load.  I guess that I should just leave it alone since I have come up with the exact same combination all three times.  At what point do you guys determine that a load is good enough?  like I mentioned, I have that 22-250 that I worked loads up 3 different times (regularly shoots under 0.75" but not unusual to get 0.5" 5 shot groups), but on the other end of the spectrum, I have a 30-06 that was my first reloading experinace.  With this gun I simply picked a load out of the load manual and loaded up a bunch of ammo.  This load shoots just over an inch, but I have never messed with that load attempting to fine tune it.  I have killed a pile of deer and several elk with that load, and it works just fine.
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Offline PowPow

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2010, 06:35:16 PM »
I am beginning to think guns don't have good and bad recipes; they have good and bad "seasons", or maybe they are just moody.
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Offline BCB

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2010, 01:19:39 AM »
Phewww, I don't believe I have ever, with one exception, had to shoot that many rounds to get a rifle/handgun to shoot to its potential.  The rifle that was the exception, I no longer own.  There was something simply wrong with it.  If one has to use 10 different powders, 10 different bullets, and 4 different primers (just an example), to get a rifle/handgun to shoot, that person is either too fussy or the rifle/handgun is junk—period.  Plus, it gets too dang expensive as the combinations of these components gets to an amazing number...

For one thing, unless mechanical means are used to hold the particular rifle/handgun in place, there is human error.  Most people don't have the ability to shoot benchrest stuff nor do they have bench rest equipment…

I use the “common sense” method—forget the ladder or whatever.  Pick a proven powder/bullet for a given cartridge and start with that.  These combos are known and they are used for good reasons.  Then do a bit of experimenting…

Concerning this matter, Greybeard and I agree about ladders…

Good-luck…BCB

Offline Land_Owner

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SATIRE
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2010, 07:39:21 AM »
Dang...I thought I only PREVIEWED a satirical piece I was CONSIDERING to write in response, then thought BETTER, decided to NOT POST, and danged if it didn't post anyway.

Sorry fellows.

Offline PowPow

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Re: SATIRE
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2010, 08:02:35 AM »
Dang...I thought I only PREVIEWED a satirical piece I was CONSIDERING to write in response, then thought BETTER, decided to NOT POST, and danged if it didn't post anyway.

Sorry fellows.

Land Owner,
Looks like you may have found the modify button.
The modify button is for impulsive people whose filter does not kick in until they hit the send button. I find myself using it alot. In fact, I just did.
The difference between people who do stuff and people who don't do stuff is that the people who do stuff do stuff.

Offline necchi

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2010, 08:38:59 AM »
I saw the original,,thought it was a good idea,,sure would be a time saver and a simple way to remove all the variables. And it would be nice to have the range all to yourself everyonce in a while.  ;D
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Offline Land_Owner

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2010, 09:23:13 AM »
Sorry about the Thread Hijack...it is only temporary.

I knew someone was going to see that thread.  Hope it was as funny to you as I had intended.  I though that GB (and forum Moderator) would probably not appreciate the satirical humor of "recommending" something that was inherently dangerous.

I would like to figure out how I did that posting, when I didn't intend to - SO I DON'T SHOOT MYSELF IN THE FOOT ON ANOTHER OCCASION.

I'm gone to the TEST SECTION Forum for just that....

Offline wncchester

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2010, 09:47:44 AM »
LADDER METHOD:  " I have done it only once, and it worked well.  I have been looking at opinions and there seems to be a great difference of opinion as to it's effectiveness."

Seems you already know of it's effectiveness, want us to try to tell you what you learned isn't true?   Not me, I love it.   What it does best is quickly eliminate charge ranges that clearly WON'T shoot well.   After I identify the highest speed range that may be good, I concentrate on that as GrayBeard does.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline KansasPaul

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2010, 05:08:00 PM »

I wish that all rifles were as easy to make work as my 45/70 - I started with a common recipe and within 6 rounds it was grouping fabulously - I mean sub-MOA accuracy.  I was amazed and super happy.   Then came along my AR - all top shelf components (ie. stainless barrel, competition trigger, top shelf scope,etc.).  I started with commonly used recipes and tried every just about everything to get the darned thing to group - got input from folks here - tried different components and kept trying to get the gun to shoot.  That's when I came across the ladder method and applied it to the AR.  To this date the gun still does not meet my satisfaction but I have made HUGE progress (groups started at 5" now I've got them to about MOA) with more development to go.  Anyway, I found that the ladder method helped me focus on finding a powder weight that worked with a specific bullet - from there I started to play around with bullet seating and primers.  For me it saved my sanity - I was bouncing from powder to bullets to primers like a chicken with it's head cut off.  Going forward this will be the first point of load development before anything else.

Happy shooting!

Paul

Offline Autorim

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Re: Ladder technique
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2010, 05:45:28 PM »
Wow!! I don't think I have ever shot that much to get one of my guns to group well. I usually pillar bed all of my bolt actions and free float the barrel. Typically I shoot Nosler and Sierra bullets and if I can't make it shoot well with a few tried and proven loads I will usually sell it or trade it - less expensive and a lot less time consuming to have a gun that will shoot well than to shoot a lot with a gun that may never shoot well. You can rebarrel for less money than a bunch of ammo. Also, I do place a value on my time and I like to shoot better than I like to load ammo. I won't spend a lot of time, bullets and ammo to try to wring out another .25" at 100 yards. I probably don't shoot well enough to know the difference - certainly not in the field.