What is the best Cal and load also why????

[lostone1413]

After reading the post about the mountain lion attacks on some of the other forums I have a couple questions. First i've owned alot of handguns different makes and cal but my shooting has always been just more or less plinking. I've never hunted with a handgun so I get lost as to the best cal talk the fps as opposed to knock down power. Out here i've never as of yet ran into a mountain lion but I have come up on their tracks a few times. I was wondering if you had a choice of 1 of 2 guns to carry what would you pick and why. Say it was a 357 mag or a 45 auto. This is were I get messed up the 45 has a bigger bullet so it should mean a bigger hole were as the 357 has a higher muzzle velocity so it would mean deeper penetration but a smaller hole so what is the best and why?? You see what i'm getting at I guess I don't know anything about the relationship between muzzle velocity and the cal or grain of the bullet. I hope someone can give me some idea as to how and understand it. Also what bullet would you pick for the cal of your choice say a hollow point or a round nose or something different. Then given the gun you would carry be it the 45 or 357 how effective would it really be against something the size of say a mountain lion?? Thanks Chuck

[Castaway]

You've asked the quesiton that always is contentious in the answers.  If talking pistol velocities (my opinion only) size matters.  There is a vast difference between a hot 357 and a 45 ACP, but I wouldn't want to carry a 357 if something else would do. A 45 ACP, while a great manstopper, is not the best cartridge for things that don't care if they've been shot.  You want something that carries through the animal.  At pistol velocities, I'd steer clear of hollow points.  Expanded bullets act like parachutes, slowing the bullet down so that innnies don't equal outies.   If I were to go where the critters could eat me, I'd lean toward a 44 Mag or 45 Colt.  I'm biased, but I'd carry a hot loaded 45 Colt, somewhere above 1100 f/s with at least a 255 grain bullet.  You can load them faster, I do for deer hunting, but in the case of close in self defense, it will still go from one end of a cat to the other and give a little better recovery time than a heavy recoiling load.  Bigger bullet, bigger hole, and it will exit an animal

[michbob]

An interesting article in one of the gun mags I read once came from a chap who lived in Alaska.  His theory, when confronted with a big nasty, only having a pistol, was that penetration was the best, hopefully hitting something vital on a long, thru and thru wound channel.

For a long time, he carried a .357 loaded with a 180gr FMJ bullet.  If memory serves, it was by Norma.  It gave much penetration in a conveinient, controlable package.  He'd used it on game, including a irate grizzly.  Musta worked.

This seems to me to be a logical train of thought, although a controversial one, no doubt.

This will be a popular thread.

Michbob.

[crawfish]

We’re talking about BIG CATS here so I'll take my queue from the guys who kick them out of the thick stuff in Africa. If I carried TWO guns one would be a 12ga auto full of max loaded 3 ½ inch 4s'. Since that is the medicine of choice for pissed off leopards should be more than enough for cougar. Other gun would be a .41RemMag loaded with any of the hunting ammo on the market that the gun liked.

[Castaway]

Crawfish, I can't argue with you on this one.  Since it is a handgun forum, I limited my answer to pistols.  I heartedly agree, the preferred gun for a guide going into the bush for a wounded leopard is a 12 gauge shotgun, loaded with buckshot.  Heard that, and read it many times.  Have thought about it and am convinced if I had to do it, a 12 gauge pump would be my gun of choice.

[JOE MACK]

lostone1413,
Mountain lions are not hard to kill. They are thin-skinned and usually don't have much fat. We have killed them at home in Montana with everything from a .22Magnum to the .45Colt. I've killed more than a few with a .41Magnum and a 210grJHP. The .357magnum with a 140 to 180gr JHP will do the job handily. The best thing to do if you encounter a cat is to keep your wits about you. Panic will cut one's chances of survival by a bunch. RKBA! :money:  :cb1:

[ar-steve]

here is a great site about this... www.firearmstactical.com

[MS Hitman]

If all I had was a .357 and did not reload, I'd most likely go with the Federal 180 grain Cast core.  This round exhibits excellent penetration.  If all I had was a .45 Auto, I'd go with a 230 grain bullet with either a truncated cone profile or a Hydra-Shock.  Mountain Lions are not hard to kill, but it's that stopping thing that can get tricky every so often.  

Personally, if I were to go some place where I knew I might bump into a hungry lion; I'd have my .475 Linebaugh on my belt ready to turn Tom inside out should the need arise.

[Ranger413]

My two pennies . . .

The first thing you need to decide is do you want a semi-auto pistol or a revolver.  I believe in most cases you will have a big cat "on you" before you know what hit you.  THEY are the hunters and YOU are the prey.  

After choosing the gun and caliber you must practice to no end.  You will most likely be firing from 15 yards and under at t big cat charging you.  If you can rip off 4 or 5 rounds comfortably at any distance under that with decent accuracy then that is the gun.

My preference?

My first choice would be a mid sized .40 S&W.  Probably a SIG because that is what I have.  I feel that this round would be adequate (maybe not one shot kill) and controllable for rapid fire.  

My second choice would be a .38 snub nose.  Once again, adequate and controllable.  You don't need a big boomer to nock down a cat.  The big .44s and .45s are just not needed in my opinion, and who can control one of those beasts rapid fire?  I know the old saying that "the first most accurate shot wins", but I'd like to rip off a few before the thing starts clawing at me.

Now, if we were talking about a charging bear and we were limiting ourselves to hanguns I would say the .44 mag would be the minimum - loaded with 300gr. cast lead bullets.

Ranger413

[BBQ Warrior]

well I would have to probably say the 10mm auto.  But that would be my preference, or if it was a revolver id go for the 357.

just my 2 cents

[DzrtRat]

My own choice would be a 4" barreled double action revolver in .357 mag, using 158 grain hollow points (with a wide hollow point).

Why?

Well, first off, the .357 is more than adequate for something the size of a mt. lion.  Plenty of power, and plenty of penetration, even with hollow points.  To stop a lion quick, I want something that will penetrate to the vitals, yet will be fast enough to cause major upset to a cat's vital organs as it goes through.  The .357 is that balance.  Make the cat's blood pressure drop to zero by destroying major vessels and it's going to stop, quick!

Why the hollow point?  Cats are thin skinned so you don't need a deep penetrating bullet.  Hollow points at a fast velocity will upset more tissue than a cast or soft point bullet.  I'm not looking for a blood trail, I'm looking to stop a big cat from chewing me up.  Who cares is it exits?  I want damage inside, not an exit hole.

A 4" double action revolver is easy to carry, easy to shoot, and quick to get into action.  In .357 mag, the recoil is light enough that it's easy to shoot fast in double action mode, too.  The .357 is more that adequate for stopping a lion, and it's cheap to shoot so you can get lots of practice.

What else would you need?

[Redhawk1]

I would have to say my BFR in 500MAG with it's 5 1/4 inch barrel. Or a 44 MAG if I am being charged, I want to put it down as fast as possible. If you all think a .38 will or smaller will work on a charging mountain lion, think again. Yes, people have killed them with a 22 MAG, but they were treed or not charging. Any animal may not be hard to kill, but when they are after you, the adrenaline alone will carry the animal after being shot.

[MS Hitman]

You are absolutely correct Redhawk1.  There is a big difference between killing and stopping and most people just don't seem to understand.

[Mikey]

Lostone:  MS Hitman had it right - cougar/mountain lion are not hard to kill.  You can easily take them with the 357 with anything from a 125 gn hp to a 200 gn solid, or with a 45 with 180-200 gn soft nose or hps.  The 230 gn ball will penetrate through and through but doesn't impart a lot of shock and awe to the target.  

Take you choice of caliber, just make certain you carry the type of boolets that will on a critter that size, and practice with it, 'cause as the ranger said, by the time you finally figure it out the cat is already on ya.  So, practice with whatever you choose and keep you eyes open.  Mikey.

[LarryL]

Redhawk1

Did I read that correctly?  You have a BFR in 500 mag with a 5 1/4" barrel?  Is that the new S&W 500 mag?  OUCH!!!  That must really be a lot of fun to shoot!  Probably get one deer with the bullet and the rest of the herd and half your hunting party with the muzzle blast!!

LOL :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1

Did I read that correctly?  You have a BFR in 500 mag with a 5 1/4" barrel?  Is that the new S&W 500 mag?  OUCH!!!  That must really be a lot of fun to shoot!  Probably get one deer with the bullet and the rest of the herd and half your hunting party with the muzzle blast!!

LOL :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

Yes, you read it correctly. I bought the BFR in S&W500 MAG with the 7 1/2 inch barrel and sent it to Mag-na-port and had the barrel cut down and muzzle crown inverted. I also had 4 port porting done. It is a handful. I have been shooting the 440 gr. bullets, I tried some of the 275 gr. and it was a whole lot less recoil. Rather pleasant to shoot after the 440 gr. I also have the S&W500 in a Smith & Wesson, I plan on leaving it all original. I have a Leupold 20MM EER scope and an Ultra dot for it. I can switch between scope and red dot. My BFR is my back up gun and in close gun. I think the S&W500MAG round will be here to stay.

[LarryL]

Better watch out when you fire it off!!!  The department of homeland security will think you are lighting off bombs and call out the Army!!! :eek:  :eek:

[Sixgun]

Mountain Lions are easy to kill and they are also easy to turn in an attack.  In Idaho it is legal to hunt Couger with a rimfire and many of them are killed with one.  Yes many are shot out of trees but when they hit the ground you still want them dead, or you will loose some good hounds.  Most of the guides want you to use what you are comfortable with.

By what most of is said in this thread, everyne wants to go for penetration but then most of the people that have not ever even seen a lion in the wild, let alone shot at one.  I have seen them shot in mid stride and change their mind and be going the other way when they hit the ground.  They don't like pain and react to it real quick.  When you shoot one you want him to think "WOW!  THAT REALLY HURTS!", not "did a bee just stine me?".  I would go with whatever you are comfortable with in a fast light hollow point if my main concern was couger protection.

There is another thing to think about though.  Bears usually live in the same places where cougers live.  When I carry a gun for protection in couger country it is bears that will most likely be a problem.  You don't hunt bears with rimfires and rimfires don't make good bear stoppers.  That is why I carry a 44 mag with 300 gr hollow points when I am in couger country.  I have been charged by black bears twice in my life.  The first one caught me up on Big Creek and all I had was a 22 revolver.  I got real sweatty in that encounter.  I bluffed and the bear backed down..  The Second was on Blacks Creek, just out of Boise.  I had a 44 mag and the bear lost.  

I have a friend who shot a couger that jumped at him from a rock he was standing under.  He killed it, with a 300 H&H, before it killed him.  He was elk hunting at the time.  I have never even seen a couger in the wild when I wasn't hunting them.  I have seen fresh sign and known they were there but they are pretty timid in Idaho.  Cause we still hunt them here.

Sixgun