Author Topic: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend  (Read 12636 times)

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2010, 11:15:28 AM »
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm

I've steered you all to "Rotmistrzb" website, a number of times in the past and several of you have come back oooing and aaahing.  The man is FOCUSED.  A man of MANY talents.

Pan Heretyku

Thanks for this post, Rich; I certainly remember the website, but I didn't place that name with the site. I agree with you that the man (Rotmistrzb) that wrote the post on this thread should definitely be taken seriously.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2010, 06:23:02 PM »
?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline artillerybuff

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2010, 06:30:05 AM »
Have just read all of the comments with great interest as I am always interested in learning all I can about cannon related injuries.  I personally do not call them "accidents" because they just would not happen unless someone failed.  I did not see if this specific situation was investigated to conclusion yet, but would be VERY interested to see what they come up with...

For those who do not know me, I have been shooting full size cannons with live full service loads and with blanks for 11 years now and my Battery shoots an average of 800 rounds per year.  Multiply that times 4 for our entire organization, and I have never seen or heard of a pre-ignition occurring, period.

Most events (and I have been at events all over the US) do not properly inspect the equipment.  IMHO, a proper inspection should include:
1) Bore and vent inspection with bore scope.  A barrel with a badly pitted bore or an eroded or oversized vent should not be allowed on the field.  Be sure to pay particular attention to the vent where it enters the bore.
2) Inpection of implements equals a proper fitting worm with sharp tips and properly designed & fitting sponges.
3) Inspection of entire drill including timing between shots, cleaning of vent between shots (before sponging) etc.  Also, DO NOT pound the round in or pack it into the breech, just slide it down the bore to the loaded mark on the rammer, nothing more is necessary.
4) Inspection of the Ammo box and the rounds for proper construction, weight, type of powder, and fit.  We use no less than six layers of heavy duty commercial foil; ordinary kitchen foil is just way too light.
If live firing, each round should be passed through a bore gauge before loading to ensure it won't get stuck.

I do not believe we need to add additional regulations or rules such as a remote vent sealing device or crooked rammer.  We just need to follow and strongly enforce the proper safety steps already in place.  Just like anything in life we can try to dummy proof everything in our lives but where does it stop?

Respectfully,

2nd Lt. Anthony A. Variz
Battery D 5th US
www.batteryd.net

Offline Rotmistrzb

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2010, 05:18:04 AM »
Controled test, re: accidental discharge, blamed on a stray ember. I thought that would not , could not, happen if the charge had been properly made, so devised an experiment.

My controled test was run last  monday, in which I tried to determine how long it would take to ignite a black powder charge with a red-hot charcoal brickette, if protected by a charge casing constructed of only and exactly 2 layers of heavy duty kitchen foil.

I posted pictures in the SCA gunners list...3 pictures are in photos/kismet http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Gunners/photos/album/564888360/pic/992084227/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc. One showing the setup - the shape of the
charges which were constructed, and the container, an alum. coke can bottom 1/3.  I tested 2 charges in 2 cans at the same time, for two data points.

I wanted a metal container to keep the charge seated on the coal and the heat concentrated as it might in a gun tube. On the other hand I did not want to contain gases which might cause an explosion so the can was kept short.

The charge bottom is exactly 2-layers of heavy duty foil, using my cannon's(kismet's) charge shaper/mold(shaper pressed down into the center of a sheet, so that the bottom would not have any folds), and a half ounce of 1F
black powder (this was about a 1/3 inch thick powder layer), (goex-brand freshly opened can).

The second picture shows how the charge fits inside the container: about 90% close fit.

I removed 2 charcol bricketts from the middle of a pile on a grill, which were by my best judgement at peak heat. They had been heating about a half hour, and were fully ' ashed' and glowed a fairly uniform dull red. these were removed by thongs and placed in the 2 test containers. and within 20 seconds I put the
first charge on and 5 seconds later the second charge.

I noted the time and stood clear. The 3rd picture shows the test in progress.

After 15 minutes passed and neither charge had ignited, I terminated the formal
test, concluding that the coals had cooled and there was little prospect of
ignition. Nevertheless, for safety reasons I did not approach the test setup
until approximatly 40 minutes passed, at which time I lightly hosed down the
setup from a distance. 20 minutes later I approached the setup and poured on enough
water to fill the container, and found (somewhat to my alarm) that the coals
were still hot enough to boil the water I added and that the powder charge was
still being heated.

That's only two tests/trials, but I feel confident in concluding that 2 layers of foil well protect a charge from
accidental ignition from coals. In reality, an ember in a cannon would not be
nearly as large, hot and long burning as a charcol brick, and anyway it would
only need to protect the charge from igniting for a minute or so, to allow
completion of the loading process.  I would like to repeat the test with a single layer of foil; would hypothesize that in all of several trials the charges would survive a minute without ignition (recalling all the times I applied a glowing slow-match to priming powder with no immediate effect).

A properly made foil-wrapped charge with not 2 but at least 3-4 layers of foil
seems essentially proof of any risk of accidental discharge by an ember. I don't
know what caused the accident, but it was not 'only' a stray ember.
-Rick Orli

Offline KABAR2

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2010, 07:45:39 AM »
A stray ember is not a bricket that may be trapped insome layers of an old cartridge,
the aluminum cartridge being placed in the chamber might be torn by the old cartridge
holding the embers allowing transmital to the charge. while I find this test interesting
it has not addressed the problems that can come up in the chamber of a cannon too
many variables exist.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2010, 08:13:38 AM »
Cool test.

It is scary to come back to a mortar and see a glowing ember of the fuse after 3-5 minutes after firing.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Rotmistrzb

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2010, 08:56:49 AM »
I agree, if the charge was properly constructed, there must have been some other failure in handling that created the conditions ... conditions that both left a live ember there AND burst open the charge.

I have a 2" diameter plexiglass tube I acquired to help teach a cannon loading class.  Using that, Another interesting test might be to construct a good full-sized charge for the tube, and see what sort of loading or rammer misuse can cause dust or grains of powder to be freed.
Would a properly designed snugly fitting ram-rod do it, even after several hard strikes?  Would turning it during the strike increase the risk of a tear?
Or, A too-small rammer, such as the handle of a sponge instead of a proper rammer, (maybe a  broomstick sized handle) ?
Or, If the charge were introduced backwards, such that the twisted 'mouth' of the charge faces inside?
Or, if the twist was tall and spike shaped, vs folded over into a ball.
Or, Can a foil cartridge remnant contribute to tearing open a new cartridge?
What other variables can you think of?
These things can be tested... absolute proof I don't know but solid evidence about risk factors can be obtained.

As a cannon owner and gun captain ( who sometimes has teens on my crew) I wanna know for sure.
-Rick

A stray ember is not a bricket that may be trapped insome layers of an old cartridge,
the aluminum cartridge being placed in the chamber might be torn by the old cartridge
holding the embers allowing transmital to the charge. while I find this test interesting
it has not addressed the problems that can come up in the chamber of a cannon too
many variables exist.....


Offline royalranger

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Re: serious cannon accident at Plymouth NC this weekend
« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2010, 02:11:55 PM »
  Hi   I built my own cannon  i made a copy of the  gonzlas gun  i live In Texas and do Texas  rev  reactiong   I been to various schools for cannons. Somthing went wrong  , proabaly a crew problem but who knows  .the anti gun pres we got  I am sure is looking at thing like this to shut down cannons and bad things     Praise God