Best c&r rifle for investment purposes?

[bremraf]

Hey all, should be getting my c&r soon and was wanting some informed opinions on what rifles out there would be the best investment as of right now.  I have heard that k31s, and enfields are drying up but like i said I'm new to collecting and would like some direction from the more experienced in our midst

[30-30man]

The Enfields are a little harder to find in good shape. You see more that are busted up and pitted to the point of being a wall hanger than you do the K31s.  The k31s are more plentiful right now.  If I found a good Enfield, I'd probably start there first.  I tried to sell one of my K31s a few months back and could not mark it low enough to get folks to even consider looking at it.  I think most are put off by the odd caliber the Swiss uses. They think it is going to be hard to find.  Which it is if you don't mail order ammo or reload.  303 British can be found about anywhere.  I'd start with a Enfield if I was collecting.  If I was buying it to hunt with or punch paper, a K31 will outshoot about any surplus rifle out there even Springfields.  They almost always dominate the surplus rifle shoot at Camp Perry.

[mcwoodduck]

I think you are behind the curve.
The $90 No 1 Mk III's, No 4's, 96 swedes, SKS, are all gone and now command $200 Plus.
The $200 K 98's, M1 Carbines, and 1903's
The $400 m1 Garands...  have all dried up.  They are still out there but the piles of them have dwindled.  may are safe queens, many have been sporterized, and still others are lost in garages or under beds.
I would just suggest getting what interests you be it mauser, enfield, tokarov, SKS, American military or what ever floats your boat.
No matter what the American military stuff will command a premium over all the european, comi block, or south american counter parts.
I once had the idea to start a Mauser Collection, till I saw that there were about 150 differnet varations of the 91-98 rifles.
I then tried to do all of WW I and II and was over welmed with those numbers but those would be the ones most people would want.
Especally if they do another popular movie that will drive up prices as people want the rifles depicted.
The Rough Riders, Enemy at the gate, and band of Brothers all drove up the prices of the rifles used in the movies.
I guess if you are looking for investment rifles get a subscription to Variety and see what WWI and WWII movies are going to be made with big name people  and buy rifles accordingly, mark them up 20 -25% and sell them after the movie or series comes out.

[Dang]

 A K31 should be at or near the top of your list.  As far as military rifles go they have fairly low numbers of production compared to other WW2 rifles.  I think once the supply of them dries up they will only go up in value.  As far as accuracy and quality of workmanship on a battle rifle the K31 is hard to beat.            Dan

[Czech_too]

Figuring in the length of time (30-40 years) it would take to make any real money on a C&R, I wouldn't get into it as an investment.  Granted, that 03A3 purchased back in the 70's for $150 is now going for $700, if you can find someone to pay that price.  But as an investment...  I don't know.  Sometimes I wish I still had that 1898 Krag and could find some 'sucker' to pay $1000 for it.

Which C&R now available, and affordable, I would look at would have to be the K31 with an Enfield, in good condition, being next.

Brian, in Ohio

[bremraf]

Thanks for replies all! I'm not looking to make a quick buck here, I'm more looking for long term or SHTF type of investment. May never see a return, but you never know.......

[1marty]

I bought a Swedish Mauser 96. It is the most accurate C&R rifle of my collection. They are still around at $350 to $450. I'd stay away from the batch of russian rework mauser 98. The Ruskies after WW 2 through all the parts into piles then proceeded to assemble a "bunch" of guns. Recently for $300 bought on gunbroker Enfield Ishapore 7.62x51. After some fine tuning I'm getting 4 inch groups. Not great-but I'm getting there.

[trotterlg]

An investment in 10 or 20 years?  My guess would be some SKS's or a bunch of the cheap Russian bolt guns that can still be had for $75.00, my guess is that in 10 or 20 years these will appreciate by a much larger percentage than any of the rifles that are now considered collectables.  Buy a couple of thousand dollars worth of Mosin Nagants, clean them up, pickel them and sit back.  Larry

[mannyrock]

  Hmm.  If you are really interested in an "investment", then the way to approach it is the same as for antique gun collecting.  Buy a classic piece, in the highest possible condition you can afford, and hold it for 10 years. Yea, I know that you don't want to spend that kind of money, but that is the way its done.

  For example, buy as close to a mint condition 1903 Springfield as you can find, all original, matching parts, and then put it in the safe and leave it there. Don't shoot it.  If you can't afford that, then buy the highest quality1903 A3 that you can afford, and hold it.

  Otherwise, you will just be buying low to mid-quality surplus, and trading it back and forth every few years, for very small profit, if any.   There is nothing wrong with this, and I know that some people derive great joy from it.  But it is not the way to create a high yielding investment.

   If you are looking for some type of quick turn-around profit on pieces, in 3 to 5 years, it isn't gonna happen.  For every one piece you get lucky with in this regard, I believe you will lose money or only break even on two other pieces.  When averaged out you probably earn little or nothing.

Regards,

Mannyrock

[mcwoodduck]

Thanks for replies all! I'm not looking to make a quick buck here, I'm more looking for long term or SHTF type of investment. May never see a return, but you never know.......

I am confussed.  Do you want it as an investment, Go High end American like an M1 - D
 an Investment you can play with,  Go with someting you like and want Enfield or mauser.
or are you looking for something to have for SHTF that is rugged and reliable as most battle rifles are.  Mauser 98 in either 7X57, 8X57 or one of the south american 30-06 post war models.
Or are you looking for rifles to keep as barter for items the liberals and other non - gun owners, have that you want?
In that case Mosin Nagants - Still cheap, reliable, and ammo is still pretty cheap and pleantiful.  Stripper clips are hard to find and I had only found 4 at one point and paid through the nose for them.

[bremraf]

Sorry wooduck, to clarify I am looking for long term investment, or barter items in the event of the worst.  I'm investing what little money I have into these type of investments... silver bullion, ammo, etc.  I was just looking for some opinions on what type of guns would be worth buying and putting away for a rainy day.  I suppose anything that has a decent rate of fire and ammo is plentiful would do lol.  Mosins are so cheap i can buy 3 and 880 rounds of ammo for less than 500 bucks..... but i can also get 2 enfields for 500 bucks right now.  Thanks for all the replies guys, your wisdom far exceeds my own. 

[trotterlg]

If the "worst" happens, a custom shop $2000,00 Mauser will not bring you any more money or goods than a $75.00 Russian gun with a bag full of ammo will.  Larry

[mcwoodduck]

Of the two choices.
I would get the enfields.
10 rounds, and stripper clips available.  The ammo is about the same.  both rimed rounds launching a .311 bullet about 2600 FPS.
The enfields are smooth and easy to shoot with the bolt in the right place.
I think the Nagants with the strait bolt that is forward fo the trigger guard is akward to cycle and shoot from the shoulder.
It may get you out to shoot the enfields and if the SHTF you will be able to hit something.
My problem with using guns and ammo to barter is you may be arming the people that come to try and take your stuff.
gold and silver as well as dry goods or tools (knives, hatchets, ect) for barter but I would stay away from fire arms.
All we have to do is look back at history and the American frontier.  Dry goods, blankets, and tools were good barter items.
Go ask Custer if giving the Indians surplus henry and Win 66 rifles with obsolete rimfire ammo was a good idea.  They thought it would be a good way to get rid of the rifles and with only a few hundred rimfire rounds per rifle.  They thought the indians would use up most of the ammo trying out the rifles and save the remaining ammo for hunting.
instead the indians found way to reload the rimfire cases.
Historians have found multiple rimfire cases on the battlefield with multiple strikes in the cases.
I would hate to see you arming your murderers.  People that you traded with in the after noon comming back in the dead of night to get thier stuff and more back from you.
Right now if I have a spare $500 for a SHTF stock.  I would get an English Sovergn (1/4 Oz of gold about $330 by the site I by gold today actually 2 - 1/2 sovergns are less only $320.  The english sovergn is cheaper than either the Kruger Rand, maple leaf or American eagle 1/4 ounce, or silver maple leafs $21 each that have a lower price than the eagles $23) and the rest in ammo for your primary guns or dry goods (rice, dehydrated food - Nuts, friut, potatoes.  ect) water proof containers to keep the dry goods or ammo.

[bremraf]

I like how you think woodduck... never thought about arming your neighbors turned attackers.  I have junk silver, and american eagles as of present.  Also lots of dried beans, rice etc.  lol.  Always want to be prepared for the worst!  When i come across the money I will pick up the enfields, as it seems like a logical choice.

[mrussel]

I like how you think woodduck... never thought about arming your neighbors turned attackers.  I have junk silver, and american eagles as of present.  Also lots of dried beans, rice etc.  lol.  Always want to be prepared for the worst!  When i come across the money I will pick up the enfields, as it seems like a logical choice.

Isn't that the exact same logic that says ban all the guns because people cant be trusted with them. Just something to ponder.

[Victor3]

Thanks for replies all! I'm not looking to make a quick buck here, I'm more looking for long term or SHTF type of investment. May never see a return, but you never know.......

 In that case, I'd stock up on inexpensive 22 rimfire rifles/handguns and a pile of ammo. The average joe in a survival situation isn't going to pay more for a 22 than for some obscure milsurp he's not familar with.

 For long term investment aside from a SHTF, a gun is no different from a coin; rarity, condition, popularity and quantity on the market at a given time are what determine value.

[bremraf]

Wow I like this thread!  MRussel you make an excellent point too.... but what woodduck said made me think that if SHTF and my neighbors aren't already armed, then maybe there's a reason. In a survival situation it would be difficult for me to put the responsibility of keeping watch etc., on someone who has little to no firearms training.  That said you never know what the situation will be like till you are in it.  There will be a time when it will be hard to trust anyone possibly even family.

[mcwoodduck]

I like how you think woodduck... never thought about arming your neighbors turned attackers.  I have junk silver, and american eagles as of present.  Also lots of dried beans, rice etc.  lol.  Always want to be prepared for the worst!  When i come across the money I will pick up the enfields, as it seems like a logical choice.

Isn't that the exact same logic that says ban all the guns because people cant be trusted with them. Just something to ponder.

Not at all.
Everytime the City government has banned firearms the murder and crime rate has gone up, every time the city or state Government has allowed free carry of a firearm the murder rates and crime rates drop.
When ever a State (Country) bans firearms the people loose all rights and become subjected to the government.
And much like nuclear weapons I am not afraid of someone that has more than one gun, I am afraid of someone in a tight position that wants only one!
They have a plan to use it.  And that use is not going to be good. 
In a SHTF senario where people are willing to barter off food and other items to obtain a firearm they may want it for self protection, to stop others from attacking them and stealing thier crops but most likely they have a plan to use it to obtain more goods and barter items.
Although I think most of the un armed people will be weeded out quickly as either prey, or seeking shelter with armed people.

[1911crazy]

Don't forget the toilet paper its always bringing up the rear The only thing i worry is protecting my family and our food supply.  Just hunker down and let everyone else who isn't prepared fight it out.

But really for a SHTF weapon i'd go with an sks 7,62x39 or a saiga in 223 or in 308.  For an accurate long range weapon it would be any of the bolts actions like the Finnish mosins,  the Russian mosins, mauser in 8mm,   Swiss K31's, the swedish mausers or an Enfield.   For upclose and personal protection its always been the 12ga with "00" buck.

For a down the road investment i'd look at the russian mosins which are still under $100 at some internet dealers while there already hitting $200+ on some gun for sale sites.  I would also look for a m38 and a 91/59 mosin too.  These do turn up time to time at the dealers.  These will be more rare than the rest of the mosins.  If you look at samco(dealer) the prices have already gone up on the swiss k31's.  I remember when aim surplus and century arms had these for just $79 to $89 dollars.  Century also sent out the walnut stocks for the same price.  Some of the sks's and swedish mausers are already hitting close to $500.  The surplus military guns have started getting there just do price wise.  It had to start happening sooner or later as most of them have dried up already.  I'm sure we may see a $1,000 sks when all the yugo's are finally gone.  The prices on the surplus military stuff has been lagging behind for a very long time. Its time to remorgage the farm and buy what you want now before they go any higher.

[mrussel]

Wow I like this thread!  MRussel you make an excellent point too.... but what woodduck said made me think that if SHTF and my neighbors aren't already armed, then maybe there's a reason. In a survival situation it would be difficult for me to put the responsibility of keeping watch etc., on someone who has little to no firearms training.  That said you never know what the situation will be like till you are in it.  There will be a time when it will be hard to trust anyone possibly even family.

 I certainly am not disagreeing that I have had neighbors that I would prefer NOT to be armed should something like that happen. Those are not the people who I would "be concerned about having guns because they dont know what they are doing" becuase for most,if things really did fall apart and law and order really did come from the barrel of a shotgun,they would be more than willing to learn the basics. It doesn't take long to get someone to the point that they are not dangerous to themselves and those around them,and most of your typical city dwellers that have never touched a gun in their lives would realize very fast that they didn't even know how to load a gun or hit a target. They are not stupid,its just that they made a decision alone the line that they didn't need guns,or that what the gun control advocates told them was true. Once it became clear that there were two classes of people,those with guns,and those that give their stuff to the ones with guns on request,they would adapt and most would be very happy to take advice from their neighbor that they recall has allways had lots of guns and goes hunting and to the range and practices and all. In fact,they might just come knocking on your door asking for help,realizing all those things you told them about how keeping guns around was a good idea on a dozen different levels really WERE right.

 What I worry about is the neighbors I have had that were not those rather normal people. I worry about the ones that would steal my stuff if I turned my back. Without any repercussions,they would instead shoot me in the back then steal my stuff, and those kind of people,while typically not "skilled" know the basics of using guns and are more than willing to use them. They are not going to be interested in trading for anything from me anyway. Trade means you come to deal that's acceptable to both parties,and chances are neither side gets everything that they want but both sides can live with the arrangement,just like in any negotiation. These sort of people want it all,and will use any means at their disposal to get it.

 

[mrussel]

I like how you think woodduck... never thought about arming your neighbors turned attackers.  I have junk silver, and american eagles as of present.  Also lots of dried beans, rice etc.  lol.  Always want to be prepared for the worst!  When i come across the money I will pick up the enfields, as it seems like a logical choice.

Isn't that the exact same logic that says ban all the guns because people cant be trusted with them. Just something to ponder.

Not at all.
Everytime the City government has banned firearms the murder and crime rate has gone up, every time the city or state Government has allowed free carry of a firearm the murder rates and crime rates drop.
When ever a State (Country) bans firearms the people loose all rights and become subjected to the government.
And much like nuclear weapons I am not afraid of someone that has more than one gun, I am afraid of someone in a tight position that wants only one!
They have a plan to use it.  And that use is not going to be good. 
In a SHTF senario where people are willing to barter off food and other items to obtain a firearm they may want it for self protection, to stop others from attacking them and stealing thier crops but most likely they have a plan to use it to obtain more goods and barter items.
Although I think most of the un armed people will be weeded out quickly as either prey, or seeking shelter with armed people.

 One thing to consider is this is FAR from a hypothetical situation and it never seems to play out like people talk about should it happen here. Its never remains a free for all where law and order comes from the barrel of a gun. It turns into a dictatorship where something resembling order (if you stand back and squint with one eye closed) comes from the guns of a strong mans goons) Look at Somalia and Afghanistan. Centralized authority breaks down and the police turn into bands of thugs shaking down the public and taking orders from some local warlord. If you have little conscience you have the skills to join the band of thugs,or even become a petty warlord yourself. Fighting the warlord is usually not an option because a single man with a gun is not going to do well against a band of semi trained,well armed thugs. Most people get by either by leaving (refuges,which is often the safest course of action for your family if some nation will take you in) or by keeping their head down. Certainly,keeping an AK47 hidden under your floor comes in handy when the "Policeman" decides your daughter is too pretty to ignore,but then your at option 1 again,you leave or you all die.

 This seems to happen when a power vacuum forms. Ideally then,rather than trying to wall yourself in and protect whats yours,you need to band together and create REAL law and REAL order. More importantly,if you don't want to simply end up another strong man,you need to band together with people who are NOT only interested in protecting their own stuff,but interested in protecting those who cant or wont protect themselves. In other words,if a power vacuum forms,you better fill it with something fast,or someone else will,and you better think about the long term repercussions of what you create,because such things are rather enduring once created (they self perpetuate) so if you create something bad,then its going to be hard to tear down)


 The other kind of SHTF though is a different story. If for instance,neo-Hitler came to power,then think to the French model. People may ridicule the French for "surrendering at the drop of a hat" but really,when faced with the Wehrmacht crashing through their defenses it was inevitable. The French people however rose to the occasion and pretty much wrote the book on how to run an insurgency/resistance. Their government may have failed but their people have nothing to be ashamed of.

[mrussel]

If the "worst" happens, a custom shop $2000,00 Mauser will not bring you any more money or goods than a $75.00 Russian gun with a bag full of ammo will.  Larry

I suspect that a Mosin with two spam cans of surplus ammo would bring you much much more than a custom Mauser chambered in some relatively obscure magnum hunting cartridge. "Ive never heard of 472 Wheatly Belted Magnum, Archibald-Wheeler Improved,much less even SEEN a cartridge for it,Im just looking for some 9mm!" (and of course he gives you a confused look when you ask "Luger,Makarov or Browning Short?")

[bremraf]

and of course he gives you a confused look when you ask "Luger,Makarov or Browning Short?"

Now that made me laugh

[mrussel]

and of course he gives you a confused look when you ask "Luger,Makarov or Browning Short?"

Now that made me laugh

 It just occured to me,people allways ask what would be the one weapon you would want if SHTF and you could only have one. There is simply only one answer. A common make and model (for parts availablity) of a quality 12ga pump action shotgun,if possible with both rifled and smooth bored barrels,if not with a smooth barrel. Its good for defense,with a good slug,has some decent range,and you can hunt anything from large to small game with it. And nothing strikes the fear into a potential burgler or attacker like the solid chu-chunk of the slide of a 12ga being operated or the view of that huge hole that the lead will come flying out of. In short,its pretty much the most versatile weapon you can have,ammo of all kinds is plentiful and nothing says "get out,I really mean it" like a 12 ga shotgun.

 Much like an expensive peice of diamon jewlery tells your girl "I know I screwed up ,and Im really sorry" a 12ga shotgun says "I mean business and you better listen or YOUR going to be sorry"

[Victor3]

It just occured to me,people allways ask what would be the one weapon you would want if SHTF and you could only have one. There is simply only one answer. A common make and model (for parts availablity) of a quality 12ga pump action shotgun...

 Take a peek down on the Survival Skills Discussion Forum; you'll find quite a few opinions on what the "ideal" weapon would be to several members here. What's best for your situation isn't best for everyone's...

[1911crazy]

Lets get serious now about getting your C&RFFL03 collectors licesne and getting into collecting and looking ahead down the road for your investement paying off in the end after many years of fun collecting them and shooting them.

I been really fussy about what i purchased most of the time.  I look for the best buy with the best condition thats available right now.  Right now there are still good buys out there but with some surplus military guns there are few and far between.

If i were you i'd look at the yugo mausers, swiss k31,  yugo sks at Samco global arms. Then go for the russian mosins at Aim Surplus. I would also watch Allans armory for mosin 91/59's, mosin m38's amd mosin m44's they seem to pop up time to time with him.

I would also watch for collectors(us) doing safe cleaning too.

[Foxfire Rod & Gun]

Most any military surplus rifle or handgun in good to very god condition purchased today will only gain value over time. Just look back 15 or so years. British No.1 Mk.III and/or No.4 Mk.1 SMLE's for instance. I purchased many of them for under $50.00. Russian SVT 40's - under $200.00 / Chinese SKS's new <$100.00 / Carcanos <$50.00, etc. The prices for these have multiplied many times over since then. The main thing to remember is" condition - condition - condition.

I am currently sitting on a number of "cosmetically" unissued Yugo 59/66 SKS's. These have all but dried up and the ones advertised by SAMCO Global Arms seem to be quite used and most all have cracked stocks. If one has the financial resources to buy some of the items offered today on the surplus market and are willing to sit on them for 10 years or so the return on their initial investment will be much more than what a bank would offer on a CD, savings account, etc. Look at the Yugo TT-57 pistols. SOG had them last week for $189.95 with accessories. Russian Nagant revolvers, <$100.00 in excellent condition.

Buy now......................set aside...........................reap the profit later.

FR&G

[S.S.]

Ammo would be the wise investment

[Foxfire Rod & Gun]

This is very true. I try to keep a minimum of 5K rounds for each caliber that I have a firearm to shoot it in. Some calibers the stock is in excess of 10K rounds each. One never knows.

FR&G

[dieselman]

And one thing I've not seen anyone say here if SHTF not only do you need guns and ammo to protect the family BUT guns and ammo will also kill game for food to feed your loved ones. Hell cheep guns to buy now that have been around for ever is the old smoke polls (muzzle loaders) they have been killing people before this country was born, an old cap and ball rifle can be had for $100 or less. Now for shooting "the bad guy" wanting to harm the family a good semi auto with lots of ammo and high cap mag will keep them at bay, SKS fits this well and they can be found cheap (if you look) 10rd fac box mag or high cap mags can be bought if the gun is kept legal. .22's are quiet and can kill alot of game (with well placed shots) even deer size game, they can be bought cheap and ammo is all around this would fit the bill for keeping food on the table any one can shoot one with out fearing "the kick". Just some of the things I keep in the back of my mind if SHTF.