Living With A .30-30

[sae8425]

The overwhelming consensus of opinion in the ‘Re-chambering a .30-30 Combination Gun’ thread I recently started (plus another forum thread about re-chambering a .30-30 to .30-40 Krag) was this: DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING IT! Okay; I do get it.

So, my options to improve the ‘punch’ of my Savage 24 .30-30 seems to be limited only to ammo up-grading via either handloading, or using Hornady’s LEVERevolution ammo.

Hornady’s 160 gr LEVERevolution .30-30 produces 2,266 fps / 1,824 ft-lbs at the muzzle and
2,022 fps / 1,452 ft-lbs at 100 yds.

Winchester’s 170 gr Power Point .30-30 produces 2,060 fps / 1,602 ft-lbs at the muzzle and
1,765 fps / 1,176 ft-lbs at 100 yds.

Lets not look at LEVERevolution's longer distance improvements: I can’t normally see 50 yards in my local woods (filled with gullies, old open pit mine excavations, etc.), and a 150 yard shot across a cornfield would be a really long shot around here.

So, by simply spending a bit more money per cartridge, I could gain at least 257 fps / 276 ft-lbs at 100 yds. Better; but how much?

In addition, on the www.loaddata.com website I found a ‘bolt action’ 165 gr .30-30 load listed at 2,453 fps muzzle velocity. This is a 187 fps improvement over Hornady’s LEVERevolution .30-30 offering.

So, it would seem that while staying below the SAMMI .30-30 guideline (38,000 CUP?), I could gain almost 400 fps muzzle velocity.

And, since the Savage 24 has 24" barrels, the gains I could achieve would be even greater since .30-30 data is normally determined using 20" barrels. Looking at http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm I conclude that by handloading I could have a .30-30 round that reaches over 2500 fps and should produce about 2100 ft-lbs at the muzzle in a 24" barrel. Now were talking a hot .30-30!

I’ve been researching .30-30 ‘power/suitability’ all over the web. And, with the proviso that the .30-30 really isn’t the ideal cartridge to go up against brown bears with, most seem to believe that (if the shooter plays their part well) the .30-30 is suitable for using on any game animal in North America. And all of the comments I’ve been reading refer (I assume) to using standard flat nosed .30-30 ammo in 20” barrels.

I assume that by using a modern bullet design, the .30-30 would become more capable. While a 450 fps velocity improvement would seem like a significant amount to me, I can't see that this faster velocity would be noticeably better in the field at ‘iron sight’ / low power ‘slug scope’ ranges. However, having the ability to hit something with an additional 450-500 ft-lbs of energy (at 100 yds) does seem to be a good idea (or perhaps even necessary) when using a .30-30. It's this extra energy 'punch' that really interests me.

No, game animals haven’t started wearing Kevlar yet, but if I can improve the performance of my Savage 24’s .30-30 (while staying below SAMMI guidelines) is there any reason I should quit using LEVERevolution ammo, or not handload for even more punch?

In the shotgun barrel I have a riffled choke tube, and I use Remington's Buckhammer Slugs (the full power versions) that produce over 3,000 ft-lbs muzzle energy. As I can’t find anything to indicate that the Buckhammers are even close to the SAMMI shotgun pressure limit (12,000 psi?), I assume that running half a dozen of these 1-3/8 oz high power slugs through my Savage 24 each year isn’t going to dramatically shorten it’s life. But their kick certainly isn't helping to lengthen my shoulders useful lifespan!

But I guess that I should still stay away from tangling with those pesky brown bears who do seem to be framed with titanium.

Many thanks for taking the time to offer advice and comments.

Best regards,

Steve

[Drilling Man]

  AND how will you get both bbls. to shoot to the same POA at the same time?

  DM

[bilmac]

I responded to your original thread about some of the loads I used. I really wouldn't recommend the cast bullet load for the uninitiated, lots of problems with expansion. But if you reload then a whole new world opens up. Getting into loading need not be that expensive or complicated, you don't need top of the line stuff to turn out a few bullets for a single shot. Even the Lee hammer loader will produce ammo of similar quality to $400 set ups. You pay the difference for speed. I would recommend the Lyman tong tool if you don't want to have a bench, you can load on your kitchen table with it. They are hard to find but they are still being made.

As far as the barrels being poorly regulated, yup that is why you pay $1000 plus for a real combination gun. My solution is shoot buckshot on the shotgun. 

[coyotejoe]

I would NOT recommend a Lee Loader or tong tool if reloading for a Savage m-24. Those tools neck size only and the M-24 absolutely needs full length resized ammo due to its very flimsy extractor link which will just bend and flex if extraction is the least bit sticky.

[sae8425]

Drilling Man,

My first deer ‘rifle’ was a 1927 Ithaca 16 ga double barrel shotgun. It most certainly didn’t put slugs to the same POA at any distance. Perhaps I could keep two shots within an 8” circle at 50 yds. But I knew where each barrel fired to, and so I compensated. I used that shotgun from when I was 14 till I was 18; shot 2 deer each year with it. For those 8 deer I used exactly 11 slugs. None ran for more than 150 yards after being hit. I never missed a deer that I shot at.  I even had a home made sheet metal sight I glued to the barrel rib during deer season. I spent a lot of time in the woods and only took shots that were within the guns capability. If I jumped a deer and it was moving to fast for my mind to compensate, well there was always tomorrow! I had  enough patience to allow the equipment at hand to function to the best of it’s ability.

Call me misguided if you will, but I’m not worried about getting both barrels to shoot to the same POA at the same time, because I’ll never be using both barrels at the same time. Each barrel serves a totally different purpose.

When big game hunting I will (mostly) have a slug in the 12 ga barrel and all I need to know is where the slug shoots to. If it’s not to the same point that the rifle barrel shoots to, so what? I’m more than able to compensate to put a slug where it will cause sufficient damage. Well, I've always been able to do this in the past.

I don’t anticipate ever having to use a slug as my primary shot. It’s only there as an insurance policy for really close range use on something really big headed in the wrong direction (ie. straight at me!). With 3000 ft lbs of energy delivered in a 12 ga 1-3/8 oz projectile at under 25 yards, front of critter accuracy is good enough insurance for me.

When waterfowl hunting the rifle barrel must be empty; so all that matters is where the shotgun shoots to and how it patterns.

When small game hunting I will have a chamber adapter to shoot .32 cal pistol rounds out the .30-30 barrel, and whatever size shot in the shotgun barrel as I feel appropriate. But still, I just can't see ever using both barrels on the same quarry.

I really can’t see the fixation on having the same POA with a rifle/shotgun combination. Who needs it and why do they?

Yes it’s important with a double rifle, but my Savage 24 isn't a double rifle (many don't seem to think it is much of a gun at all).

But if I'm missing something here I'm certainly open to learning something new.

Best regards,

Steve

[v-man]

D-Man, As I've posted before the model 24 never has put both barrels to the same POI and according to the factory never will. That was my only complaint about the gun.

[Drilling Man]

  Some folks don't mind having to aim over here, to hit over there...  I'm not one of them, and i won't put up with having to remember to do that with one gun, when i don't have to do it with any other gun i own...

  DM

[Pat/Rick]

I guess I got a good one then. zeroed the .30-30 at 100 yds with 170 grain remmie's, remmie slugs, just plain 'ol 1 oz slugs print2" right and 3" down. Still minute of boiler room at 100yds. The talk of the valmet has me interested, think I'll take a look at them.

[zoner]

i have read about shotguns that have the threads for the choke tubes slightly askew so the gun doesn't shoot where you point it...and there are gunsmith's out there who can "straighten that out."  Makes me wonder if you could sight in the centerfire barrel to shoot to the sights,then shoot the shotgun barrel and determine where it hits in reference to where the centerfire hits, then have the shotgun threaded for choke tubes so it'll hit in the same spot or real close.

[trotterlg]

I have the 30-30 over 20 gauge and at the ranges you would probalby shoot a bear with your second shot out of the shotgun tube it is more than close enough to the impact point of the 30-30.  Mine has a 2.5 power scope on it, and I have seen others that used see through scope rings and used the scope for the CF and the open sights for the shotgun.  Mine I just hold a little high with the shotgun and I am good.  If I wanted more zip I would not be afraid to turn mine into a 30-30 AI.  Larry

[torpedoman]

D-Man, As I've posted before the model 24 never has put both barrels to the same POI and according to the factory never will. That was my only complaint about the gun.

The gun i regret parting with the most was a savage 24 soldered barrels not clamped and both barrels shot to point of aim, so there is at least one out there that does it.

[Pat/Rick]

If I remember right my friends shoots as well as mine, they are both synthetic stocks and equipped with choke tubes. I picked up an IC tube after I bought mine (used) with the intent to shoot slugs. The open pattern is good for grouse as well.  Still use the iron sights.