Original T/C Contender carbine w/ custom 7x30 Bullberry Improved barrel

[thornblom]

Gentlemen,

I have an original T/C Contender frame (stainless) with a custom Bullberry 7x30 Bullberry Improved barrel, 22 inches long (stainless).  I got the barrel and Redding dies for this caliber direct from Fred Smith at Bullberry.

I have a small problem that I should be able to solve, but I haven't yet.  I sent the rifle and dies back to Fred, he checked everything out, said all was fine but he did lengthen the throat in front of the chamber.  The problem is, I get runout of the case neck and when the bullet is seated then there is bullet runout.  When I chamber a loaded round, you can feel the bullet contact the side of the throat as you close the action.  When you open the action, you can feel a little resistance as the extractor moves the round out of the chamber.  Then you can see a slight smudge on the side of the bullet where it contacted the side of the throat.  I have tried full length resizing and partial resizing to no avail.  Still has some runout.

Does anyone have any suggestions or is it something I will just have to live with?

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[shot1]

Problem could be your press. It could have slop in it or the ram and the die portion may be out of line. You could try another press to see if it corrects things then you could rule out the press as the problem. If it is not the press then try seating the bullet in stages. Just start the bullet into the case then rotate the case about 1/4 turn and seat a little more then rotate 1/4 and seat more until the bullet is seated.
Also check your seating stem. It could be bent or be dirty. Hope you get it fixed.

[trotterlg]

I would say you need to do a chamber cast and measure the chamber neck, then measure the neck of a loaded round.  It is very hard to get a bullet to perfectly expand the neck when you seat it, the brass nearly always streaches more on one side than on the other.  If you have a very tight neck, it may hold the bullet over against the side of the throat like is happenig to you.  Opening the neck by .002 or so may just fix you up.  You may want to look for scuff marks on the neck on the opposite side from the scuffs on the bullet.  Larry

[thornblom]

OK, the rifle and barrel have been to Bullberry and the chamber , neck and throat are all within specs for this cartridge.  It seems that when I full length size this case in the redding die, there is more runout than when I just partial resize.  My take on this problem is that the 7x30 Waters and its improved version (40 degree shoulder) are based on the .30-30 case but the shoulder is moved substantially forward into what was the neck area of the parent case.  The case is relatively thin in that area and consequently, the case neck is easily pushed or pulled out of sinc with the rest of the case by either the die itself or the expander button.  I have replaced the original expander button with a tungstun carbide button and this has helped some.  But in talking to other shooters who use either the 7x30 Waters in it original shape or the improved version, runout is a problem with both rounds.  Most are content to live with it.  I think that if I could find a way to control and/or eliminate runout, group sizes would shrink.  Bullberry barrels have an accuracy guarrentee that says they will shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards of less than 1 inch.  This one does that, with sellected loads I have shot groups between 5/8" and 1".  Average would be about 3/4" or a little less.  Maybe I am just trying to go where this rifle/cartridge combination is not capable of going.

I have used IMR-4064, IMR-4895, WW748 and RL-15 powder in conjunction with Nosler BallisticTip bullet in 120 gr and 140 gr weight.  Next trial will be with the Sierra 130 gr SMK and Varget powder.  Wish me luck.

[trotterlg]

the chamber , neck and throat are all within specs for this cartridge.

And what would those specs be?  You still need to know what your neck clearance is and I don't think you do.  Just because a chamber is "in Spec" doesn't mean it will work properly with the dies and brass you use to load for it, especially when it is a wildcat.  Cast the chamber and see exactly what you have got, you may be fixated on the wrong thing as a problem.  Larry

[FW Conch]

As we all always do,  I agree with Larry ! 

Bullberry "IS" good but they are not always perfect.  Hence, why the rethroat ?

AND, in my experience 5/8" to 1" groups out of a TC rig ain't bad.  I could be happy with that for a long time !   GOOD LUCK - Jim

[Win 1917]

What's your runout measurement?

[dpe.ahoy]

If you are having runout issues, then you have die issues.  There may be some grease or other material in the seating stem of the die, easy check, just take it out and see.  If not then check your measurements on your case.  Check your fired case measuments as well before resizing.  If everyting is ok there then go to taking a chamber cast and measure that.  With the accuracy you are getting, it can't be to bad.  DP

[thornblom]

It will be awhile before I can do a chamber cast.  I am between jobs so money if tight.  I took the dies apart and cleaned them.  My fired cases mic .310" outside neck diameter.  Loaded cases mic .306" outside neck diameter.  Resized cases mic .303" outside neck diameter.  Resized cases mic .281" inside neck diameter.  The worst loaded cases may show as much as .0015" of runout, most are a little less than that.

[Win 1917]

One and a half thousandths is pretty darn good. If you're not neck turning that 's a good practice that can help uniformity. Other than that you're probably looking at moving into a set of high grade (read: expensive) competition dies or a corrective tool like the Hornady runout gauge to reduce the runout any further. If you're trying to get better accuracy than what you're getting (which is also pretty darn good) there's other things I would look at that would make a bigger difference than reducing what's already a very small amount of runout. .     

[thornblom]

I did some further measuring on the cases I am using for this rifle.  I measured the thickness of the neck walls in about 4 different places around the neck.  I am getting a neck wall variance of about .0015".  A few will show .002" variance but not many.

SAAMI spec case length max for the standard 7x30 is 2.040".  It is the same for the improved version.  Federal 7x30 factory ammo fireformed in the improved chamber comes out at 2.023" to 2.025".  In doing a little more measuring, I find that the neck portion of my improved chamber is a little longer than normal.  It will accept cases up to 2.074" long and not bind on closing.  I made some cases using winchester .38-55 cases so that I could get a longer overall case length.  I now have 50 7x30 improved cases that mic 2.068" overall case length.  These cases have given the best accuracy as opposed to fireforming factory loads or reforming and fire forming winchester and remington .30-30 brass.  All of those come up short.

[alan in ga]

I ran into this with my first Contender many years ago. Sometimes the "problem" is that T/C makes TOO GOOD a chamber{which of course I like}! It is in line, and minimal dimensions in my opinion [at least the one I had].
The real "problem" is the expander button in your die. It is short, and it will "ride" to the THIN SIDE of the case it is sliding up through.
My Contender was a .35 Remington Super 14. I wondered why the bullets [and short jacketed PISTOL bullets at that!] were rubbing on one side in the throat area. I rolled a loaded case and the bullet visually WOBBLED. Then I rolled a case that had been fired/not sized in the T/C chamber and it rolled STRAIGHT as an arrow with NO wobble of the neck. The MISalignment had to be occuring somewhere in the resizing process.
I went to Lee dies with the LONG expander 'button' [more like a rod] and then I had much better bullet alignment in the freshly resized cases. The dies I started out with were RCBS. Not that there was anything wrong with them, but the minimal spec chamber in the Contender just managed to 'make evident' ANY runout or misalignment of seated bullets.
Redding at the time [still?] had a longer full diameter surface on their dies expander rod/button. Lee of course has L-O-N-G expander rods specifically to help eliminate this exact problem.
A short expander button will be the easiest to pull out of a sized case, but it will surely run sideways if one side of the case neck is thinner or softer.....it just happens, even with a press perfectly in line. The shell holder cannot prevent a case from 'tilting' to one side as the expander button rides through the case neck.

[thornblom]

Hey Alan,

You are absolutely correct.  Rolling the fired case will show no runout.  Rolling the resized case will show runout and it happens in the sizing die and to some extent in the bullet seating die.

I put a tungstun carbide expander button in my redding sizing die.  Less friction to pull case neck out of sync.
Chamfer case mouth inside and out so it will enter sizing die more easily and so the bullet will enter the case mouth more easily.  Boatrtail bullets help a lot here.  Don't operate the press handle too quickly as this will create undue forces on the case.  Slowly and with feeling making sure that all is in alignment.  Same thing when withdrawing the case from the sizing die, slowly so you don't jerk the case neck out of alignment.

There is not just one thing that can help control runout, it is a lot of things taken in conjunction that will do the trick.

Thanks for the input, gentlemen.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[alan in ga]

a LONG expander button or rod as with the LEE dies will keep itself from wandering to the side. It is quite FIRMLY FIT in the Lee die, and has a thicker rod that holds it in place compared to RCBS dies. It actually CANNOT run the neck sideways as the whole neck is filled with the full diameter rod. The base of the neck is still 'holding' part of the rod [centered] as the upper epanding/working part of the 'expander rod' is doing it's expanding as it rides up through the neck.
A short button can go where ever it wants to-even sideways a bit~!
BTW-I get excellent service with RCBS and their dies, the short expander button is just something that I don't care for.

[thornblom]

Hey Alan,

I understand your point, but my rifle is chambered for a wildcat cartridge, 7x30 Waters Improved and Lee does not make dies for that cartridge.  And dies for the standard 7x30 Waters cannot be used on the improved version.  I don't think Lee makes custom dies.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[alan in ga]

Actually they do make custom dies $50 last time I heard [17 Ackley Hornet].
I've adapted some Lee Collet dies for Improved cases and even just different cases.....there are lots of possibilites.
A custom COLLET DIE in 7x30IMP would be a best try in my opinion! You might find another short 7mm collet die that could work-I'd have to look at the charts to see.
I've used 17 Remington collet dies in combination with an extended shell holder [turned on a lathe] to get collet sizing for 17 Ackley Hornet cases and 17 Mach IV cases, same with .221FireBall in .223 collet dies using an extended/custom lathe turned [just a shoulder].
Checked the Lee charts, it could be that [have to look again carefully and check measurements] a Lee Collet die in 7-08 used with an extended shell holder for a 7-30 Waters would work. You have to chuck the extended shell holder in a lathe and turn a premeasure amount off the upper sides. I have pictures of my "worked" collet dies and extended/turned shell holders for wildcat rounds I use.

Have you tried Redding "bushing" dies? It would seem that just sizing 'in' from the outside MIGHT give less runout. Forgive me if I've overlooked this in the above posts.
Here is the 17 Ackley  Hornet and a 17 Mach IV in modified extended shell holders. They work great in a 17 Rem Collet die. I did hav to make a new 'cap' for the die but that's easy, too.

[thornblom]

I'll have to check that out, I have never though along those lines.  It would be great if I could send Lee a couple of fired cases and they could build a special 7x30 Improved sizing die with the long expander you were talking about.  Or if I could have my machinist shooting pardner to build that type of expander for my redding size die.  Thanks Alan, you have opened up a bag of new ideas.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS:  I wonder if the Lee expander assembly would fit in the redding die.

[alan in ga]

I'll bet a phone call to each of the die companys would get you a 'right' die for the neck runnout problem. Lee will do it and I think I'd get the collet die. Either the collet or the regular FL die will get your case necks straight! As I said last I heard it was $50 for a custom Lee die. Never know though a call might get one they don't list but may have made a few up at some time!