I must be crazy!!!!!!

[DalesCarpentry]

I got into reloading trying to save a little money. I pretty much got tired of spending a dollar every time I pulled the trigger. That is just crazy!!!!!! Well I can't say I am doing much better now. Yea I don't spend a buck every time I pull the trigger anymore but I am shooting much more. I don't think I saved a penny so far. I am having fun and trying to find that one hole group. I am shooting a 22-250 and I have tried almost every grain bullet up to and including 60 grain V-Max at this point not to mention 3 different powders. I am experimenting like crazy. I am on Varget powder now and have 3 different bullets loaded in varying different grains of powder for a trip to the range tomorrow. I have targets marked as to what bullet and to how many grains of powder I am shooting at that target. I am even looking at tools like this now.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=37691/Product/Hornady_Lock_N_Load_Concentricity_Gauge
I mean really can this tool really shrink my groups enough for me to notice? It would seem that anything I have ever done I have taken to extremes. Why would this be any different? I am even looking into rebarreling my rifle into a 243 AI. You are looking at an out of control person looking for perfection. Lord help me now!!!! I have had hobbies in the past that cost a lot of money but I see thisnew hobby  could eclipse my other hobbies in cost. So am I crazy or what? Thanks and take care Dale

[longwinters]

You aren't crazy......just motivated...what could be wrong with that?

Long

[necchi]

Fun ain't it 

5 months ago I had to ask on this forum what the term "run out" ment 

I'm lucky enough to have a mentor and 2 pro shops local and decided to go a different route than the hornady tool.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=310955

But then I had to start neck turning,,getting things straight the first time, made more sence to me than trying to straighten things after they where crooked.

Yes, shooting ammo that that has little to no run out did/does tighten my groups,,enough to make it worth while to have the tools. I think I'm about done buying tools for awhile, I've actually reached a point where I feel I have gotten close to all I can from my guns. Now I need to work on me, of course the next step is big$$ guns and serious bench shooting/F class but that's down the list quite a ways.
 I still want it to be fun, 

[PowPow]

No offense, but the word is "obsessive".
I am obsessive; At least you are only going to the range tomorrow to test only one caliber.

This has got to be one of the worst hobbies for obsessive people.
I wish Midsouth Shooter Supply did not let you see your order history.

I got that one hole group........once.
At some point, you got to say good enough is good enough.
I will let you know when I get to that point.

Drinking would be cheaper, and probably more healthy.

By the way, Varget is not as accurate as H380 in my 22-250, but it is more predictable on hot days, like today.
And I am starting to look at IMR SR-4759 for 223-like loads out of my 22-250 for plinking; maybe have a 55 gr at near max loads and a 40 gr plinker with IMR SR-4759 that follows the same trajectory, so I don't have to mess with my scope. Did this with my 30-06 with 180 and 125 gr bullets.

[DalesCarpentry]

No offense, but the word is "obsessive".
I am obsessive; At least you are only going to the range tomorrow to test only one caliber.

This has got to be one of the worst hobbies for obsessive people.
I wish Midsouth Shooter Supply did not let you see your order history.

I got that one hole group........once.
At some point, you got to say good enough is good enough.
I will let you know when I get to that point.

Drinking would be cheaper, and probably more healthy.

By the way, Varget is not as accurate as H380 in my 22-250, but it is more predictable on hot days, like today.
And I am starting to look at IMR SR-4759 for 223-like loads out of my 22-250 for plinking; maybe have a 55 gr at near max loads and a 40 gr plinker with IMR SR-4759 that follows the same trajectory, so I don't have to mess with my scope. Did this with my 30-06 with 180 and 125 gr bullets.

PowPow Have I given you a report on them Midsouth Varmint nightmares bullets you sent me yet? I did test them in my rifle. I just remembered I may have not gotten back to you. If I did not I am sorry. Right after I tested them that day I had a customer call about a deck and and you were put on the back burner so to speak. I was going to PM you and tell you how it turned out. The Varmint Nightmares shoot real well out of my rifle and they really could be the one hole group I am looking for given some more testing. Fot those who don't know they were 55 grain bullets with a spear tip. I did manage to shoot one group with these that were under a half inch. I am going to order 500 from Midsouth and continue the testing because I think they will work real well with my rifle. Take care Dale

[wncchester]

"...looking into rebarreling my rifle into a 243 AI... So am I crazy or what? "

If you spend the money and go to the trouble to make that trivial change to a perfectly good .243, maybe so.

[DalesCarpentry]

"...looking into rebarreling my rifle into a 243 AI... So am I crazy or what? "

If you spend the money and go to the trouble to make that trivial change to a perfectly good .243, maybe so.

Please explain how it would trivial to change from a 22-250 Rem. to a 243 AI? The 243 AI is a much better long range cartridge in every way and people shoot out to 1,000 yards with round all the time. You don't hear to often of anyone shooting 1,000 yards with a 22-250. Take care Dale

[necchi]

yes the 243 is capable of 1000yrds, but if your going to swap a barrel, at least with the reading I've been doing, there are other more efficiant 6mm rounds available for that long range stuff,,
I guess it's all what a guy wants    Good luck and good job shootin your one hole on the other thread.

[Mac11700]

Dale:

2 years ago I sold off all well 98% of my reloading room. I had just about every tool in there a person could want. I am just now stating to acquire a small portion of what I once had so that I can reload 1 or 2 calibers.Before I could load around 30 different ones.

Are you crazy..no my friend your not.Your on a quest now..and in most normal peoples minds eye,to succeed in accomplishing this task,the end justifies the means. The trick is to explore the variables to any alternative before spending money on them. While the Hornady tool is a excellent tool..do you really need it? Are your dies or loading procedure causing enough run out to cause your group average to be significantly larger each time?

What is causing all of this run out..? Is it your dies? Is it your press ? Is it your loading technique? These 3 things will cause bullet run out...sometimes a significant amount..and all can be seen by simply rolling the cartridges on a perfectly flat surface at eye level while you are observing the bullet tip.

While saving money is always a good thing in general..it usually won't when it comes to buying cheap reloading equipment over higher quality equipment.Not that the Hornady tool is cheap...it's not..but there could be some other piece of your equipment in the reloading process that is. Look long and hard at all 3 things I mentioned..and see if 1 or more of them is causing this to happen on your reloads. It could be as simple as to wrap your dies a couple times with teflon tape to correct the run out..certain cheap dies are well known for this problem..or it could be your loading technique when seating the bullet..I've seen folks just sit the bullets in the case mouth with out supporting them to load..Worse case is your press is flexing or mis-aligned..This happens many times on cheaper presses and it even happens on much more solid presses,and the only way to fix that is by getting a different press or sending your in to be repaired..

I'm not telling you not to get the Hornady Lock-N-Load Concentricity Gauge..but find out the reason you actually need it first.If you can correct the run out for free so that any amount you have don't effect your group averages you may not need to spend the money on it and elect to buy some better dies or a better press..Good equipment isn't cheap..and your right..there usually isn't much savings going on when your constantly spending money. The quest for the perfect group is long and expensive road to be on my friend, and you need to step back and ask yourself if what you have now is sufficient to do what you want. If it is,then spend your money on components and go shoot or go hunting. If you elect that it isn't,then understand the laws of diminishing returns on your investment of time,money,and equipment. If money is no longer an issue to your or your family,then get a account at your local reloading vendor..If it still is a concern..try finding the cause of your problem and fix it first...Many before you learned these laws only to never to achieve their goals by spending much more than they should have or could afford to.

Mac

[DalesCarpentry]

Dale:

2 years ago I sold off all well 98% of my reloading room. I had just about every tool in there a person could want. I am just now stating to acquire a small portion of what I once had so that I can reload 1 or 2 calibers.Before I could load around 30 different ones.

Are you crazy..no my friend your not.Your on a quest now..and in most normal peoples minds eye,to succeed in accomplishing this task,the end justifies the means. The trick is to explore the variables to any alternative before spending money on them. While the Hornady tool is a excellent tool..do you really need it? Are your dies or loading procedure causing enough run out to cause your group average to be significantly larger each time?

What is causing all of this run out..? Is it your dies? Is it your press ? Is it your loading technique? These 3 things will cause bullet run out...sometimes a significant amount..and all can be seen by simply rolling the cartridges on a perfectly flat surface at eye level while you are observing the bullet tip.

While saving money is always a good thing in general..it usually won't when it comes to buying cheap reloading equipment over higher quality equipment.Not that the Hornady tool is cheap...it's not..but there could be some other piece of your equipment in the reloading process that is. Look long and hard at all 3 things I mentioned..and see if 1 or more of them is causing this to happen on your reloads. It could be as simple as to wrap your dies a couple times with teflon tape to correct the run out..certain cheap dies are well known for this problem..or it could be your loading technique when seating the bullet..I've seen folks just sit the bullets in the case mouth with out supporting them to load..Worse case is your press is flexing or mis-aligned..This happens many times on cheaper presses and it even happens on much more solid presses,and the only way to fix that is by getting a different press or sending your in to be repaired..

I'm not telling you not to get the Hornady Lock-N-Load Concentricity Gauge..but find out the reason you actually need it first.If you can correct the run out for free so that any amount you have don't effect your group averages you may not need to spend the money on it and elect to buy some better dies or a better press..Good equipment isn't cheap..and your right..there usually isn't much savings going on when your constantly spending money. The quest for the perfect group is long and expensive road to be on my friend, and you need to step back and ask yourself if what you have now is sufficient to do what you want. If it is,then spend your money on components and go shoot or go hunting. If you elect that it isn't,then understand the laws of diminishing returns on your investment of time,money,and equipment. If money is no longer an issue to your or your family,then get a account at your local reloading vendor..If it still is a concern..try finding the cause of your problem and fix it first...Many before you learned these laws only to never to achieve their goals by spending much more than they should have or could afford to.

Mac

Mac I just stated that I was looking at that tool wondering if I need it. I just rolled a few loaded bullets on my desk and detect no visable run out. That would be a good thing and I guess I don't need that tool after all. Thanks and take care. Dale

[Mac11700]

Mac I just stated that I was looking at that tool wondering if I need it. I just rolled a few loaded bullets on my desk and detect no visable run out. That would be a good thing and I guess I don't need that tool after all.  Thanks and take care. Dale

You asked a rhetorical question my friend when you asked if you needed it..but you did ask  (I mean really can this tool really shrink my groups enough for me to notice?) as well ...and the only person who can answer this is you I am afraid.I tried to answer you in the best way I knew how since you didn't give any other insight on what you were after... Does the tool does have other uses besides bullet run out ? If you need what it offers and the price is within your budget then by all means try it if you want.If your just wanting a tool to shrink your groups then that is a different story. Hornady makes some very good equipment.I have found if my dies are set up properly and I don't notice and discernible wobble on my bullet tips and ogive's. I won't see any significant difference inside 250-300 yards on my averages..Shooting long range or where the bullet goes sub-sonic is a different story. I had the RCBS case master tool for a long time before selling it..for about the same money you can check other things on your cases as well as bullet run out..http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=310955 If you are just wondering about some new tool..check and see if there are others on the market and look at their reviews..You might find something better that does more for the money..and will help you achieve what you are after.

Mac

[necchi]

Well said stuff Mac,
 There's a topic on another forum that was titled "How much run-out?" that became a huge discussion of tools with some excellant data and comparisons, photo's and drawings, all of which lead me to the case master. And of course there are better tools. And more tools!
 And you are absolutely correct about averages and longer distances. Getting the loads and case prep conditions down to something that is repeatable is really the game. While 3 shot groups are sweet and a real confidence builder, 10 shot's or more at 200-300, IMHO will tell you more about the loading techniques and the tools being used and possible corrections that can be made.
 I'm shooting hunting guns, and Handis at that, I am perfectly content with MOA at 200 and being able to hit a 8 1/2x11 sheet at 300 with the 708 an 308 (the 223 does much better). I seldom shoot at 100 any more cause it's kinda boring. The groups are too close to learn anything. Even getting a scope zero'd well at 100 is tuff. Too many clicks,,
 I found that neck prep/case condition and seating was the biggest deal. Having the tool to measure, along with a few changes too and development of my techinques led me too that.
 The path's that can be followed in reloading are many, as well as different guy's expectations and satisfaction of what "accurate" is. I have seen guy's with scoped hunting guns walk away from the 100yrd range content with larger groups than I get with my .54 ML and open sights 

[maddogg]

I've been using the Forster Co-Ax Case & Cartridge Inspector, but the Hornady gauge looks like it would be better because you can make adjustments to the bullet while it is in the gauge. It cost 1/2 again as much though.