Author Topic: Carriage Build - Wood Glue? (Read 1030 times)

XxLT250RxX · « **on:** July 25, 2010, 05:48:18 PM »

If I glue 4 oak 4x4’s together and make a stock for a scaled down Mountain Howitzer from the resulting 8x8 would it disintegrate from the recoil? I think there is a sawmill nearby where I might be able to get a solid piece but I don’t want to wait a year for it to dry.

Frank46 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:01:52 PM »

Not being an expert wood worker here, but from all of Seacoast's Artillery's builds (Mike & Tracy's) you would glue first and then add all thread rods to further strengthen your oak. Hopefully someone with more info will chime in and add to what I've posted here. Frank

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:33:03 PM »

As long as you start off with a good fit and get a good glue joint, laminated woods are often stronger than a solid piece, and it will resist warping better, too. For extra strength you could glue hardwood dowels through the laminas (layers). I'd probably also offset the joints, so you don't have a glue joint on 2 planes in the same spot, like a +, as you describe.

When I built this carriage, I started out with a single piece of wood that was plenty big enough to do one-piece sides (8/4 x 13' x 14"), but chose to do laminated sides for the effect, the strength, and the warp resistance. I drilled through them with a 5/16 bit and glued oak dowel in them to add strength to the joint, and have no worries that it's plenty strong:

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:34:52 PM »

Lamination is the way to do it. If you pick up a set of plans from AOP. The plans will show you not only were the original carriages laminated, but the plans will show how to orient the grain to avoid warpage and achieve the greatest strength.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2010, 01:45:16 AM »

Even plain old white glue will produce a glue joint that is STRONGER THAN THE WOOD.

(Which is to say use something that is waterproof, but anything stronger is not important.)

lendi · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2010, 03:51:55 AM »

I have primarily used titebond #3. it is waterproof not just water resistant. A good glue joint requires proper preperation to be strong. I also would through bolt the carriage sides for strength.

lendi

Zulu · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2010, 04:41:20 AM »

Quote from: XxLT250RxX on July 25, 2010, 05:48:18 PM

If I glue 4 oak 4x4’s together and make a stock for a scaled down Mountain Howitzer from the resulting 8x8 would it disintegrate from the recoil? I think there is a sawmill nearby where I might be able to get a solid piece but I don’t want to wait a year for it to dry.

XxLT250RxX,
A solid piece of oak 8X8 would take much more than a year to dry completely. You could have drying problems with 4 X 4 also. If you are going to laminate anyway, I would use 4 pieces of 2 X 8 material. This would give you a stronger bond with your glue. Then, running your bolts horizontally would further strengthen the trail. You would not have to run bolts vertically. Even 8 pieces of 1 X 8 material would work in this fashion. Stagger the grain as Double D suggested and the end product would be far superior to a solid piece.
Zulu

XxLT250RxX · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2010, 02:45:50 PM »

Wow, you guys are amazing. Thanks to everyone for your help.

justeric · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2010, 07:54:16 PM »

Does anyone have plans for a carriage that can handle a barrel with the following specs?

Length, 16.437 inches, OD at the muzzle is 3.45, breech around the chamber is 3.15, ring at the cascabel is 3.8. Trunnion dia 1.375 by 5.7 inches long. It's a mountain howie. I'm just looking for something strong to strap it to. On the other hand, I'm not adverse to something with function and form.

Any idea how to make or buy trunnion straps for something this size? I don't think the barrel maker is making the straps yet.

Thanks,
Eric

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2010, 08:08:36 PM »

There's a couple of threads in the "plans" sticky that you may want to look at.

lthardman · « **Reply #10 on:** July 27, 2010, 07:48:53 AM »

In the naval carriage I built for a half scale gun, I used Gorilla Glue and lots (lots) of dowels. If I remember correctly, the entire carriage had over 70 dowels. It seems to hold together just fine. To be even more sure, I used hardened steel rods that go through the trunnion caps all the way to the bottom of the entire carriage, thereby going through each glued and doweled piece. Pretty nerve wracking making that long hole, I will tell you. I also had to cut threads on each end of the hardened steel rods.

If I were to do it all over again, I would probably use epoxy as opposed to Gorilla Glue.

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** July 27, 2010, 08:36:10 AM »

Gorrilla glue likes to expand and push pieces apart.

In making the SAMCC carriage, I did not use any glue at all, all parts are bolted together.

For lamination of heavy pieces I would just use a good wood glue. I have seen laminations split that were bonded with epoxies. The epoxy does not fail, wood fiber is pulled out of one or both of the bonded pieces of wood. I think it would be easier to repair failed glue than failed wood.

no guns here · « **Reply #12 on:** July 27, 2010, 08:59:37 AM »

I tried using Gorilla Glue on some pieces... it was a pain. Expanded, made stuff move. Had to use about 20 clamps to hold stuff together. Wood glue is easier and less of a mess IMO.

NGH

lthardman · « **Reply #13 on:** July 27, 2010, 12:42:40 PM »

Yes, Gorilla Glue likes to foam/expand. Clamping is imperative. Lots of clamps. So, when I used it on the carriage, progress was limited by the number of clamps I had. Fortunately set up time is pretty fast, however. After about an hour, the expansion is done. Overnight is even better.

BTW, I did a little test comparing the Gorilla Glue to my regular wood glue, and decided on the Gorilla Glue.

As I said, no complaints so far.

Zulu · « **Reply #14 on:** July 27, 2010, 01:01:23 PM »

Quote from: lthardman on July 27, 2010, 12:42:40 PM

Yes, Gorilla Glue likes to foam/expand. Clamping is imperative. Lots of clamps. So, when I used it on the carriage, progress was limited by the number of clamps I had. Fortunately set up time is pretty fast, however. After about an hour, the expansion is done. Overnight is even better.

BTW, I did a little test comparing the Gorilla Glue to my regular wood glue, and decided on the Gorilla Glue.

As I said, no complaints so far.

Ithardman,
Show us some pictures of what you made.
Zulu

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #15 on:** July 27, 2010, 03:14:30 PM »

I just used regular elmer's wood glue, and it worked fine. Be careful of what glue you use, not just because of the potential for expansion or tearout, but also if you plan on using a stain rather than paint, as most glues and epoxies don't like stains. I've got solid hardwood dowels going through the laminate in multiple places as well as through bolts for the hardware.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #16 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:28:08 PM »

solid hardwood dowels

lthardman · « **Reply #17 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:29:42 PM »

I published this picture before, but as requested this is the carriage I made that is referred to above. Still no powder can, but this is a half scale cannon. The whole carriage sits on two 4/4's, the wheels are solid cast iron with wood inserts, and I already talked about the rest of the construction.

lthardman · « **Reply #18 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:51:28 PM »

Some other views:

Double D · « **Reply #19 on:** July 27, 2010, 04:58:46 PM »

I remember that!!!

Zulu · « **Reply #20 on:** July 27, 2010, 05:52:08 PM »

Thanks for the pics. It looks great!
Zulu

lthardman · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2010, 06:25:53 AM »

Thank you. Were I to build another carriage, I would make changes. I am pleased with the basic design, and I fully believe the long term strength is there. But, the tube I built it for (as pictured) had relatively short trunnions. I think the tube is more suited for a field carriage. I do not personally possess the skills to remedy the trunnion length. Therefore, I was not able to angle the sides like I wanted and as would be more correct. (I wonder if naval guns had longer trunnions than field cannon?) I wanted the trunnions to rest pretty completely within the "cheek" pieces.

But, with over 70 hardwood dowels and Gorilla Glue bonding the "cheek" assemblies, and with three bolted hardened steel rods going through each "cheek" from top to bottom (two of these even pass through the 4 X 4's,), and a couple more also providing rigidity from side to side, I think it will stay together.

A nice find was the cast iron wheels with bearings. They were not that expensive, and allowed me to fit oak inserts giving the impression that they are solid wood with a metal band around them.

It is plenty heavy, I will tell you that. While I suppose I can pick it up by myself, I would rather not. I have not weighed it, but it is heavy. No way one could pick it up with with the tube mounted in it. The barrel is 30.5 inches without the cascabel, has a 4140 ordinance steel sleeve, and iron cast around the sleeve. GB bore.