Throating a 444?

[bikerbeans]

Anybody open up the throat on their 444?  If so how did it shoot afterwards?  I am interested in shooting some 350 to 400 grain lead bullets but the short throat on my gun make me seat the wide meplat bullets I want to shoot very deep.

BB

[NFG]

Throating is always a krap shoot...doesn't matter the caliber or rifle/pistol brand or type.  I've had many done by gunsmiths, done many myself, most worked well for the bullet I throated for BUT...shorter bullets lost accuracy initially but regained it when I reworked the load...there is always more to it than just the fact of throating.

If you throat for a longer bullet AND seat the bullet shallower in the case you should gain a bit in case capacity which means a slightly better ballistic increase.

Increase the throat length a little more, ALA Weatherby, and you would lengthen the peak pressure time therefore requiring a slightly heavier powder charge to increase the velocity a bit more.

All this gets into a lot more development work than most people want to do...but the results are very interesting.

There are always trade-offs.  A heavier bullet in a 444 means less velocity which translates into less energy even though you gain a higher SD usually...it opens up the bucket of worms as to which and what is best...energy or SD(supposedly more penetration).

I think a 405 gr WLN DCG Beartooth seated about 0.305" deep to give a COAL of about 3.00" or so would be great.  You could get 1800-2000fs out of it in the NEF without any problem.  Basically a smaller dia 45-70 with the same weight bullet.  Definitely nothing to turn your nose up at.

I read something in the early days of the 444 M that any weight over about 290 gr and you hit the wall of diminishing returns (in levereguns)between velocity and energy.  The only way to know for sure is to do it or find someone who has done it and actually crunched the numbers.

Several of the levergun forums are full of good information on finagling the 444M. 

Luck

[quickdtoo]

BB,

You may be able to load the 355gr BTB without throating, I've shot it in mine loaded .007" off the lands at 2.631", I can send ya some to give it a shot. 

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm?category=4&id=

[bikerbeans]

NFG & Tim,

Thanks for your input.  I was looking at the BTB offerings and their heavier bullets had caught me eye, as well as the ability to fine tune the bullet diameter.  Tim, I would appreciate a few of the 355s to test.  I will send you a PM.

BB 

[JamesIII]

BB, how do you like the .444? I have been thinking about adding another caliber and the .444 intriques me. Of course I still have to get the manditory 30-30 and 45-70 yet! JamesIII

[bikerbeans]

James,

the 444 has been a lot of fun and I have gotten good accuracy with it a lot faster than with my 45-70.  Not sure if my success is because the 444 is more accurate or I am actually learning a little about reloading.   The 444 would be a good addition to your stable of Handis as would the 30-30 and 45-70.  I recommend the 45-70 because I really like the caliber, the 30-30 I recommend because I don't wan't to draw the wrath of my fellow Handi owners. 

BB

[NFG]

There are many reasons why you might do better with one caliber than with another.  They are both inherently very accurate.  Could be recoil, or you are hitting the sweet spot quicker in one than in the other, more shooting of one than the other, and just plain more practice.  It's all good when this happens.  

Tim's 355gr WFN  BTB is a very good looking bullet, or try the 330 LFN DCG or 335 LFN.  I've tried several BTB bullets in my 45 cals...WFN and LFN's.  I like the looks of the LFN's so I ended up using the 45 cal, 450 gr LFN in my 458 American and 45-70 BC and crimp in the last grease groove to get the case OAL right for the SMLE action(same load so I can interchange the 458 Am and 45-70 in the SMLE also)...and the 525 WLN in 45-90 to 45-120 cases.

~72 gr H2O for the 444 M case and ~ 78 gr H2O for the 45-70 case...8-9% difference.  

The 444 M is slightly smaller in OD and "usually" shoots lighter bullets at a higher velocity than the 45-70.

Energy increases at the velocity squared so the energy increases much faster as the velocity goes up, so the 444 Marlin does a very good job until you get to the point of diminishing returns where the smaller case can't hold enough powder to get heavier bullets moving fast enough to overcome the slightly larger dia, larger cased 45-70.

This is mostly academic as a big slug outta either one will "geterdone" most effectively.

I've never had a 444 Marlin and I can't figure out why...I have cases, dies, bullets etc, have reloaded and worked up loads for friends that have 444's, but everytime I decide to build/buy one something else came along and grabbed me and the 444 was forgotten.  Go figure.

Most of the time the arguments as to which is "better", I think, are washes except when someone starts waving around bullets of 450 gr or heavier, then the 45-70 gets center stage...mostly because there are few 44 cal bullets over 400 gr commercially available.  

The 44 cal actually has a slightly higher SD than 45 cal when comparing equal bullet weights, because the 44 cal will be slightly longer, which also means the BC will be slightly higher.  But when you are comparing flying trash cans, this small fact becomes moot or nit-picking.

In reality, many 45-70 users load the lighter 300 gr bullets at velocities closer to 444 M velocities because recoil just hurts.  We continually hear about the 45-70 knocking the dog whizzz out of the shooters, but most 444 M shooters complain very little.

The perception of recoil is highly subjective...it doesn't matter what the caliber...a 400 gr bullet at 2000 fs in a 8 lb gun is the same, but say it is a 45-70 and watch the eyes roll...in a "little" 444 M, it "ain no thaannng".

No matter...both of them are excellent prospects and good to go, will take any N.A. Game with the correct weight bullet and shooting distance, so you can't go wrong picking either one.

Pick your poison and enjoy.

Luck