Author Topic: Shock and Awful (Read 1711 times)

ingwenya · « **on:** November 23, 2003, 10:10:40 PM »

I'm having a hard time with Taurus. Two reasons. First, I own a .357 Mag marked "Taurus Brazil". I have a relatively hard time finding any appraisal information for it as it is not listed in any of the local gunshops' books. It is however a good gun. It has just been near impossible for me to find accesories, ie speedloaders, etc. That kinda bugs me, but not really.
Secondly, I want a Ragin .454 badly. Here is the main problem: they brake. The whole design is fantastic, truly a wonder of manufacture, why not strengthen it? Can Taurus not rig the alloys right? I read in another forum that Ruger had to turn to a stronger alloy for the .454 SRH. If anyone has any input letme know.

markc · « **Reply #1 on:** November 24, 2003, 04:02:51 AM »

Huh? Are you saying that the Taurus Ragining Bull 454 is not a well made revolver, subject to breaking ? If that is what you are saying, I would ask you to provide some proof. What do you base that opinion on?

Seems to be a very well made revolver and particularly strong. Second not being able to find appraisel info, you have a hard time with Taurus?
markc

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** November 24, 2003, 04:55:32 AM »

Who says they break? Based on what? Personally I'd rate the RB as stronger than the SRH. I can't prove that but that's my opinion. If you break one you're really trying hard is all I have to say.

GB

Jim n Iowa · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2003, 12:56:54 PM »

I have three Taurus pistols, all say made in Brazil. Have had no problem buying speed loaders, holsters etc. For any of them. Now wally world sales people may not help you find access. but I am sure your local gun shop can. I don't own a RB but my m44 is as strong or stronger than any S&W 629 I have shot.
Jim

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 24, 2003, 01:55:10 PM »

mine hasnt broke, and i dont expect it to. me thinks you ve been misinformed.

ingwenya · « **Reply #5 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:44:48 PM »

About a year ago, my cousin and close friend bought a RB .454 w/the 8' barrel. It was a great gun! I liked to shoot it, he liked to shoot it. A pin (i will get more particulars) busted and the gun had to be sent to Taurus for repairs. He purchased a RB .454 w/the 5" barrel to shoot while the 8" was being repaired. After about 3 months the same pin broke. Mind you this was just factory loads being fired. The first impression was that there was a faulty batch of guns on the market, that was not the case. The explanation was something like, "the gun wasn't designed to have 200+ rounds fired through it during one sitting." Before it was sent back, we compared the size of the pin to that of my SBH .44 Mag. The Ruger was much largerand "beefier". We contacted a couple retailer in AK who explained they had to send almost every sale back within the 1st year. After having them both fixed, he sold them both and bought a Freedom Arms. To date, with more many more loads fired, the FA is still just fine. I do understand that they cost more than double the RB. But the SRH doesnt, and I have had no problems, complaints or concerns. As a matter of fact I want criticisms of the SRH .454.

Consider how you would feel if you plunked down $800 on a .357 Mag. It broke and the manufacturer tells you that they didnt expect the consumer to shoot it as much as you do. You'd be pretty pissed. But the RB .454 is of good design, I like the way it shoots. It is accurate. I just dont want to go through the same thing others have if there has been no strengthening.

ingwenya · « **Reply #6 on:** November 24, 2003, 03:46:52 PM »

Jim:

I bet your revolvers say, TaurusUSA. Mine says TaurusBrazil. I didnt know if it was two different companies or if they switched names/models based on the timeline of events in Brazil. I appreciate your information anyway.

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** November 24, 2003, 04:01:18 PM »

All of the Taurus guns are made in Brazil and imported into the US by Taurus USA which is located in FL.

You'll have to pardon me if I take the story you tell with a wee bit of salt. It goes down better that way. I have to assume the "pin" to which you refer is the pin thru the middle of the cylinder. Sure the one on a single action is larger than the one on a double action. They serve somewhat differnt purposes. You're comparing apples to oranges. The pin isn't what the RB locks up on.

I honestly do not believe it is physically possible to have it break in an RB while firing. When you have the gun disassembled yes perhaps, but not while assembled and firing it. There is no strain placed on that pin or any pin I'm aware of in the RB during firing. I think a more likely scenario since you mention factory ammo is that Hornady ammo was in use. It sticks in the chambers of most RBs and many Ruger SRHs. I think the owner was pounding them out and bent the crane and maybe even broke it. This is abuse and any double action will break if done this way. The RB is stronger in this regard than the S&Ws tho. Not sure about the Rugers.

GB

ingwenya · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2003, 08:21:51 PM »

Markc: Im stating that two were purchased and two broke, in my presence. I feel no need to provide proof the guns broke. Im not implying Taurus revolvers are junk. I am very pleased with the way my .357 shoots.

GB: Im not asking anyone to believe anything I said, regardless of sodium content. My point about my SBH .44 is that it was beefier for a smaller caliber that exerts less pressure. Hornady ammo didnt break the gun, Cor-Bon 300 gr were used. Those loads should not have damaged the gun at all. And the owner never pounded the gun except by shooting it.

I really wanted a RB .454, I like the gun. I just wanted to know if Taurus had strengthened their RB .454. I guess the answer is no.

markc · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2003, 02:18:18 AM »

certainly you don't need to provide proof to me, but let me ask you. Since the two "pins" broke in your presence, what was the person handling the revolver doing at the time the "pins" broke? It may be as GB stated and the "pins" broke due to improper useage. If you would provide more information, someone here might be able to help you.

I do believe that the RB made by Taurus is stronger than the model 44 Taurus that Jim in Iowa and I both use, and after hundreds of both factory and handloaded ammo, nothing has broken. It is the same revolver pictured on the exotics forum under "markc's goat". Sorry to doubt your post, but it sounds a bit suspect to me.
markc

myronman3 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2003, 08:22:07 AM »

i have hundreds of rounds through mine and not a single problem. a friend of mine had one and he hotroded the hell out of his and had some problems; once he backed it off to normal loadings he has done fine. i am impressed that the gun toook his abuse and held together. i wouldnt think twice before i bought another one.

VSSF · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:34:13 PM »

I love mine and it's only fired full-house loads.My brother has one too with no problems.

mk454 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2003, 01:30:17 PM »

Well, I'm new here and registered b/c I wanted to back up my cuz's comments. He misspoke just a little on the details of my probs with the RB. First off, I first bought the 8-3/8" barrelled one first. I had read about the probs with the hornady brass so I never used them. I did have some sticking probs with the win brass but nothing that required pounding. The pin he's referring to is the "pin" that touches the paul and turns the cylinder. I'm not a gun smith so I don't know the technical term. This is the part that was weak and under trigger pressure allowed one of the chambers on the cylinder to have play upon the pull of the trigger. It began to shave some of the jackets off. To put it simply I had a consistent problem with lock up on one chamber consistently. I sent the gun in for repair and purchased a 6.5" barrel one b/c I did want a shorter barrel anyway. To make a long story short I had to send the longer barreled one back 3X's-no reloads, all factory, and absolutely no pounding on the gun. The 6.5" gun then had to be sent back for the same only once. That appeared to fix the problem for good. The longer barreled gun was traded back in for credit towards a FA 454. While checking for a store that had a premiere grade in stock I came in contact with the owner of one of the largest gun stores in AK on a business trip and had an interesting conversation with him. He said that he wouldn't even carry the RB's anymore b/c of having to return so many 454's in the past. He didn't hate taurus and carried a huge stock of their other pistols as well as RB's in every other caliber other than 454. He said he believed the round to be just too brutal for the lockup of the gun. If you compare the FA or ruger or the BFR they are all significantly stronger in this one area of the gun. I still have the 6.5" barrel and shoot it occasionally with lighter hand loads b/c it later broke one more time. This time the owner of the range/store it was purchased at talked to taurus and informed me that they just don't see people typically put as many rounds throught them as I do. I shoot alot. I've put over 300 rounds through one gun in a day. (frequent cleanings and cooling.) If you're ever at the whittington center in Raton and see the guy shooting 3 or 4 casulls on the rifle silhouette range that's me. I will typically go out to the center and shoot 1000 to 2000 rds. per weekend. I reload now and can afford to do this a several times a year. You can say you don't believe it or whatever and you can chalk it up to abuse but none of the srh's BFRS or my immaculate, incredible FA has broken. The RB is my cousin's favorite to shoot. He loves it but if he has to choose just one 454 on his budget right now it can't be a gun that he has seen have repeated failures. It'll have to be the SRH. Not doggin taurus but his question was have they fixed this problem yet? Oh yeah, the 6.5 incher never had probs with brass sticking and was better built in a number of areas. The 8 incher is still serving as a rental at patriot firearms in lubbock. It has been sent back 3 more times and you can rent it and probably break it as well if you're ever in town. Maybe the 8" was a serious dud and the 6.5" was a partial dud, but that's the reason for my cuz's post.

myronman3 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2003, 01:54:39 PM »

it is good to have first hand information; secondhand leaves too much room for guessing.
i think that is really interesting. i have a raging bull and so do two of my buddies. the one had problems, but like i said he brought them on himself. with all the guys around here that shoot them i think it is nuts that you have two guns that are doing the same thing yet very few folks report problems with theirs. i applaud you for not having a stick in the mud attitude given your experiences.
a solution(maybe). ingwenga maybe should consider a raging bull in 44 magnum. i personally wouldnt worry about their strength; but obviously you guys are (given your experince). few folks (myself included) need the power of the 454 and would truthfully be better off with a 44. i realized this after big-stick-itis bit me so now i just load the 454 to 44 mag levels. but anyhow you would still get the revolver design you like with a chambering that isnt as brutal. and the 44 did everything the 454 has done, years before. just a few thoughts....

mk454 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2003, 03:49:16 PM »

I appreciate the advice. I probably am the one to blame. I shoot the 454 primarily for nostalgic reasons. I grew up in chicago and never had a dad that did any hunting(did alot of fishing--had a good dad) but I always read capstick's books and remember hearing about this strange 454 caliber in a field and stream article in the early eighties i believe. I remember hearing about a guy rolling a grizzly at one hundred yards or so and was enamored with the cartridged and needed to own one. That's why I never just went with a 45 colt or a 44. I also download most of my loads to really hot 44 levels. sometimes I load snot knockers in 240 gr. for the trajectory for deer and elk hunting. shooting gloves really are nice. My cuz has a sbh in 44 and we are going to get into bullet casting and really do some serious hog hunting as well as prepping for the africa trip in a few years. To consolidate calibers and loads and we both will shoot the 454. I still think that RB is the best shooting (comfort level) big bore in existence. That's why I still own one. I think they are fine if you don't get crazy and shoot muchos hot loads through them. Look at the paul on the RB and the SRH or FA. You'll see that there is a weakness in the RB that I wish Taurus would address. If so I'd buy them in 44 , 480, 454, and so on. It's not the only manufacturer that doesn't do everything perfect. Ruger could make a mint off of a SBH 454, 480. Why they don't

?? I'll never know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #15 on:** November 25, 2003, 05:28:07 PM »

Thanks for the clarification. That part isn't a pin but I believe is called the "hand". Have no idea why one would break tho. Wear yes. Get out of time yes. Maybe it just was so badly out of time that the pressures broke it.

For sure I'm not of the opinion that Taurus puts out ONLY good guns. The last two I've brought home now have had to be returned for replacement. There is one boxed up now that I picked up today. I'm waiting for FEDEX to come hopefully tomorrow but likely on Friday to get it and take it back. This gun just like the M44 I bought should NOT have gotten past quality control. If you want the details on the problems it has they are on the Taurus Forum.

But RBs in general are not weak and not problem prone. My .454 has had thousands of rounds thru it and is just as tight now as when I got it. These are full house loads BUT are book loads not the stuff some folks use which are up there near 100,000 psi rather than the 65,000 psi SAAMI limit for this round.

GB

Old Griz · « **Reply #16 on:** November 28, 2003, 06:41:07 PM »

mk454;

Ya have to realize that some folks are such die hard Taurus fans around here they'd still defend it if it blew their hand off. Everyone makes a lemon every now and then. My first Taurus was one. Therefore, there was never a second. After hearing your experience with them, you have confirmed in my mind that I made the right decision.

I think you're right, too, about a Ruger SA in .454 and .480. And as long as your making a .454, I'd throw in the .475 as well. They could make big bucks on these. Other people are--on Ruger frames. Can't imagine why they're not doing it.

Also-hope you're getting your teeth tightened regularly! That many rounds of .454 might just rattle 'em loose one of these days!

Good shootin' yawl! :cb2:

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** November 29, 2003, 06:51:47 AM »

Griz I guess that was aimed at me but I don't think it fits.

I've many times stated that my first two Taurus guns were far less than satisfactory and almost turned me off on their guns. They were real old production. I waited a LONG time after the RB came out to get one in .454 Casull. I kept talking to my favorite FFL dealer who was selling them like hot cakes about them. He kept telling me he had not had one single one returned for problems nor had any buyer mentioned problems with them to him. Finally I broke down and took a chance.

My personal RB454 is one super gun. Tight as any factory revolver I've had in my hands (if we don't count the FA guns) and now after thousands of rounds still is. It is "almost" as accurate as the FA83 I was testing at the same time. With iron sights it is as accurate as the shooter is the weakest link with both when using iron sights.

Since that one I've now had in my hands and used from a good bit to extensively a Ti Tracker 627 in .357 Mag that I have only good things to say about but the 4" barrel is a bit short for my old tired eyes. Some times it shoots better than I have a right to expect and other days not so well depending on how well I'm seeing that day. A Model 85 Ti in .38 Special with 2" barrel. It shoots like I shoot all 2" barrels, ie, not good really. Can't see to shoot a barrel that short. It is Matt's daily carry gun now. An RB480 that is even better than my RB454. It is a more accurate gun and just as tight. Even with iron sights when I shoot this gun I make groups way smaller than I can see to shoot on a consistent basis. It has never given one moment's trouble and in my opinion is the best handgun I own.

Now then let's talk about some more not so good. OK call a spade a spade. BAD! I bought a new M44 with the 12" barrel. It tossed at least two of ever cylinder thru the targe side ways. Yeah the broad side profile of the bullet not the nose of it. Another couple might go in nose first but at least two would also be tipped some but not fully as the ones first mentioned. I've stated this on these forums several times. That gun should never have left the factory. BUT Taurus paid to have it returned and replaced it. I had the new gun in my hand maybe 10 days from the date I placed the phone call to them about the first one.

Now I have bought a new Tracker Ti 460 with 6.5" barrel in .45 Colt. I didn't even fire it. I called and it is now back at Taurus. Full sory is on the Taurus Forum if you care to read it. Needless to say I didn't even feel I should pull the trigger on it prior to returning it for what I fully expect will be a new replacement. IF mind you IF by some chance Taurus were to return that same gun to me saying it was Okie dokie and I should just learn to live with it then me and Taurus would have a parting of the ways post haste. I don't expect that to happen tho. I'm sure their customer service department will quickly make it right for me and send me a new gun. Either way you'll read about it right here on this site. I give the good and the bad but from current production guns I've sure found a lot more gun than bad.

As has been said they all let a few bad ones out the door. But if they immediately take care of you when that happens I just can't really hold it against them too much.

I just wish my experience with Ruger products were 1/4 as good as with Taurus. Sadly mine hasn't been and that's why at this time I own a total of one Ruger gun. But it is a winner and a keeper.

GB

Old Griz · « **Reply #18 on:** November 29, 2003, 07:46:30 PM »

Sorry GB -- I should've put a big grin icon after my first sentence. You, and others, are a lot more forgiving toward some of these guys than I am. I don't have a whole lot of money to spend on my toys, and when I get a gun that's a dud, I just don't do business with that company any more. It's such a pain sending guns back even if they do fix them, and you still have to pay the postage. I've had a big problem with only two companies, Colt and Taurus. (Of course one reason I won't do business with Colt is simply because I can't afford to. Throw in another couple of hundred and you can buy a Freedom Arms masterpiece!)The only companies I have had 100% total reliability from are Glock (the ONLY semi-auto I'll buy these days) and Smith & Wesson, but S&W is another can of worms, too. :wink:

So there! I can be just as stuborn and opinionated (and wrong) as the next guy! But I'll try to be nicer about it! (That keeps it fun!) :cb2:

mk454 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 29, 2003, 09:07:00 PM »

Graybeard I've gotta agree with you on the points you made. First, I'll say that I wish companies would not have a year or 2 :x of duds they let out of the factory. I've wondered why this is acceptable. A first batch maybe but not a few years. I would love to do bus. with Taurus again, as would my cousin. I think the freedom arms are by far the best built, but the raging bull is the best design for big bore calibers. You can shoot them all day, except in my experience cuz they broke. I'm hoping that they fixed whatever issues plagued them. I think from a marketing standpoint it would do them well to list improvements made on the gun. Like," new for 2004, tighter tolerances and better fit and finish. " They should advertise it. Tell everyone they fixed the weak links. They need to realize they alienated a lot of customers and that while they've made significant gains in marketshare they can hit the bottom of the barrel just as quick. Magnum Research comes to mind here. I want everyone to know that the difference b/w their recent offerings in the BFR and the old is like night and day. I saw a BFR back in 1999 and couldn't believe someone would sell a gun like this, let alone charge $1000 for it. Now, different story. They are making stuff way superior to Ruger, not FA, but definitely better than Ruger. Saw the BFR and SW 500 both obviously in 500 and I couldn't believe it. The BFR I'm here to tell you was way better fit and finish wise. In fact I'd rank them higher than any other production big bore pistol next to FA out there. My 454 is really really nice. No complaints, but where's their warranty? 1 year, can't compete with smith ruger taurus or FA on that one. Now how many out there have thought they'd really like one in 454 or 475 but have just heard too many negatives in the past and can't take the chance. Maybe a 2nd chance is in order for Taurus based on all I've heard, but not for my cuz and me. We're still in school and can't afford the hit on that much money for something that doesn't hold up. That's why a 2 year lemon period is too long. MRI and Taurus have had hits to their rep that some savvy marketing and tighter tolerances at the factory could fix but I guess that isn't so important. SORRY THIS IS SO LONG!!!!!!!

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2003, 06:03:40 AM »

Griz, I've not spent one red cent on postage to Taurus. I call the Customer Service manager and tell him I want a free return at their expense. Gun ain't right I don't wanna pay to return it. I could take it back to the dealer and he'd pay the shipping but dang it he ain't the one that let it get out wrong the manuafacturer was and they should pay for shipment. So far they have. I sure don't like to get bad ones but realize that from time to time everyone does let a bad one out. Well maybe not FA, at least not in my experience. In both cases where I've gotten problems it was with brand spanking new to the product line guns. If problems are gonna happen that's when they can be expected to happen. Still don't like it but as I grow older I've grown more mellow and more willing to forgive and forget as long as the Customer Service department treats me right.

When they don't, well you can be assured I'll sure let folks know and will sure turn my back on them also.

GB

Old Griz · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2003, 08:07:08 AM »

Hmmmm . . . maybe I need to change dealers. When I had problems with the product they sold me, they told me they's be happy to send it back--at my expense of course. THEY weren't responsible for a faulty product.

However, when I wrote and emailed Customer Service at Taurus (I didn't call) I NEVER got a response from them. So I went with the dealer shipping it back.

volshooter · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2003, 12:45:42 PM »

I've owned a RRH in .454, a RB in .454 and a SBH in .44. I still have the last 2. I don't push the Raging Bull past it's favorite load of 30gr of 296 under a 340gr WFP for a modest 1540fps. I've not heard of Taurus problems since the 80's. The Red Hawk (.454) cylinder would jamb way to often for me with factory ammo even more with hand loads. Just shows everyone gets a lemon once in a while. I put the 8" RRH and the 6"RB over the chrony and fps differences with all loads shot were only in the 20 fps. range, I found that interesting. Sorry to hear about problems with y'alls pistols. I favor my Super Black Hawk but cannot find anything wrong with the Bull. Well yes, there is.....I shot it from an enclosed ground blind (called an "out house") and stupidly forgot the 8 ports and cylinder gap blow by...... my "out house blind" now needs some major repair. Dang thing produced 8 Roman Candles, blinding me for a second or two. I remembered that 1/2 second before I pulled the trigger last Friday, and I remembered that my ear plugs were in my pocket 1/2 second after pulling the trigger. Couldn't hear much before, hear less now. Somebody answer that %^#% phone! Dumb dumb dumb :shock:

yes, the doe droped almost as fast as my IQ and hearing.
Rick :shock:

daddywpb · « **Reply #23 on:** December 02, 2003, 01:15:29 PM »

Speedloaders and even holsters designed for Smith and Wesson J and K frames will work just fine for the older Brazilian made Taurus revolvers.