Question on alloys?

[Canuck Bob]

I am going to blend my lead alloy from known sources.  Clean lead flashing scrap locally, Roto's Super Hard Antimony alloy, and tin.  Since I can make my alloy anything I want I'm hoping for some advice before I place my Roto order shipped to Canada.

I want to shoot a gas checked 32-20 bullet at a max of 1600 fps with Blue Soft.  For convenience I want air cooled bullets only at this time.  Of course shipping lead to Canada hurts but the final cost per bullet is still a great deal.  

I'm wondering what is the best alloy for this mission without any extra sweetness?

Would you change the alloy if a plain base was used? 

Also what alloy would be best for lapping bullets?

[Veral]

  I have no idea how Roto ships to Canada, but suspect that you'd get the best deal by simply buying their linotype, which will blend instantly with any lead you can find at the scrap yard.  Straight antimony doesn't melt into the lead very easily, requiring quite a bit of time and high temperatures, and that's the main reason suggest you avoid using it.  Casting alloy of any kind, when produced by a US smelter, must have all arsenic removed, and that is detrimental, for anyone wanting to water quench or oven heat treat, because without arsenic, little hardness is gained by heat treatment.  You can supply arsenic in sufficient quantities by simply adding a few wheel weights to each potful, or an ounce or two of lead shot, which is relitively high in arsenic to make it form round balls when dropped from shot tower.

  If you are comprehending clearly what I've said above, you'll see that by water quenching an alloy some arsenic you'll be reducing your alloying cost by at least half.   

  When shipping to US address's Roto metals ships in postal flat rate boxes, in something like 50 pound lots, and shipping cost is very low.  Of coarse, as I stated above, I'm quite ignorant about Canada costs, but still believe you'll be happiest and get a very good value by purchasing just linotype from the smelter.

  Your little 32-20 isn't going to be very demanding about alloy at the speeds you are wanting, with a 1600 fps top end, especially when using LBT bullet lube.  I believe as little as a half pound of lino plus a bit of arsenic, per 20 pound pot of commercial pure lead, which is what roof flashing is, will give you adaquate hardness if you water quench.

  You seem concerned about the hassle of water quenching.  Most people use a good sized bucket of water, and float a sponge to drop the bullets on, so the fall is slowed, to prevent battering.  If desired one can quench just fine in 3/4 inch of water with a folded terry cloth towel laying on the bottom of a pan.  Just be sure to drop so the bullets don't hit each other, and dip a finger in the water occasionally to be sure it is staying cool, if doing an extended casting session.  A large flat cake pan is excellent for this purpose.

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks Veral,
I've decided since first post to work on alloying PB bullets first and worry about GCs later.  Following your lead I'll slug the barrel and throat to assure proper fit and use only LBT Soft Blue.  I will switch to quenching to harden the bullets.

Roto supplies a 70-30 L-A alloy called Super Hard so casters don't have to deal with raw antimony.  I have older magnum chilled shot gifted to me for Arsenic.  The original alloy worked up was 95-1.5-3.5 L-T-A no arsenic.  Based on a $44 for 19#s International shipping box it worked out to 150#'s at $1.70/pound (.03 per bullet, GC pushes it to a dime) once alloyed with local commercial pure.

If I add trace arsenic to the alloy and quench or full heat treat (well within my abilities) could I go to 97-1-2 L-T-A without making poor PB bullets to 1600fps from a 32-20?  I will quench, age and store cold.

I'm not stuck on 1600fps, 1400 would work, just want to stay supersonic to 125 yards.

[saddlebum]

I apoligize for butting in here but I just gotta say, if I had known casting was so complicated I would never have started. WOW!!
I guess I'm really blessed that I have been able to get WWs and just water quench. They work for everything I shoot. I have had good luck dropping my bullets from the mold into a full 5gal bucket of water and they cool enough not to dent when they hit bottom. I am thankful that God made casting more simple for this simple minded hillbilly or I probably wouldn't do it. If I never cast before and was reading this thread, I would probably never start if I thought I had to deal with all that.
Carry on you metallurgist, scientific fellows you. You make the rest of us dummies look good!!!   

[Canuck Bob]

Truth is I almost dropped casting as a hobby.  But if I work at keeping it cheap the benefit is wonderful.  Locally WWs are a hot commodity.  I travel the province of Alberta and in the farthest reaches WWs are spoken for.  We have lots of shooters and hunters as we might be blessed with the best hunting fields in NA (i'm sure the BC boys might disagree).

To me the casting is ok but the avalanche of gear to buy and maintain seems staggering.  Then the scrounging and smelting of WWs.  In the last 3 days I've given my head a shake and will be working with Veral to get a proper fitting mold, plain base, shoot as cast, finger lube.  I'll put my time into learning to load ammo for one rifle and learn all the tricks at my loading bench.  A hotplate, cast iron pot, postal scale, ladle and clean alloy lead will be my tooling.

[saddlebum]

Hi Bob,
I figured you must have a hard time getting WWs. That makes it a little tougher to make things come together. But it looks like you are on the right track from your posts. I have been fortunate to get my hands on alot of WWs some years ago. I may be in for a rude awakening if I run out in the future. I have managed to keep my costs pretty low without sacrificing quality. If you haven't already got Veral's book you might want to get it. It's worth every penny in what it will save you in trial and error and answer all or most of your questions, and then some. It looks like your pretty well geared up from your post. I might just suggest a good flux, a thermometer, and a skimmer. I use a cheap steel slotted serving spoon for a skimmer. I cast for a long time without a thermometer and got by okay but now I have one I don't want to be without it. Oh, and you might want to get an ingot mold for your finished alloy. I use a cheap aluminum muffin pan. Lots of ways to save a few bucks. Good that your not scrimping on molds though. Very important!!
                                                                                                          Good luck and have fun!!

[Veral]

  Today, after writing all the above,  I remembered looking at the website of a monstrous lead smelter in Canada.  From what I read I could easily presume they are the largest in the world, but that was only my impression.  The point here is, search the web for any Canadian smelter or lead dealer and you wouldn't have the import duties and excessive shipping to deal with.  The company I looked at, which I can't recall the name of, would deal in small quantities but could also ship many alloys by the traincar load from stock.

  Wheel weights are getting hard to find in the US also, with the easiest source I've found being local scrap dealers, who have them by the barrel here yet, though most tire shops won't sell to individuals.  I've also seen many other alloys in our local scrap dealers stock.  Linotype, babbit, and various soft lead like pipe, phone cable and lead sheet.      By the way.  Few casters say linotype properly, as it's purpose has all but been forgotten.  It was formulated for making printers type, so the name was line  o  type.  That's the proper way to say it.

[saddlebum]

Hey Bob,
Veral's suggestion got me curious so I poked around online and found this. It's a network of scrap dealers with listings in Canada. It looks like it might help you find some WWs in your neighborhood. You can fill in the blanks and I think they email you the results of your search. Might try it and see what you come up with.

http://www.recycle.net/Metal-N/Lead/index.html

http://www.scrapspot.com/cdn/lead/

You can buy scrap WWs from these sites......Good luck!

[LabRat2k3]

Guys what I know about bullet casting you could fit in a single .22 mold, but I thought you would like to know that you can buy new lead wheel weights from JC Whitney. $58 will get you a little over 14 pounds of them. I'm not sure what shipping would cost or if they ship to Canada or even if that is a resonable price for your raw material. I did look on Midway at their casting alloys and it seems to be about the same cost per pound so it may not be a good deal. Just thought it would be good info incase you can't get them cheap anywhere else.

[Veral]

  Keep in mind that as little as 25% ww alloy will harden up pure lead well enough to stand stout magnum pistol loads and fairly powerful rifle loads, if the bullets are quenched or heat treated.  It also makes a very ductile alloy because of the low antimony content, which is unbeatable for use with expanding game bullets.

  For Canuck Bob's 32-20 loads, it would be plenty satisfactory, and a bit of calculation of the costs will make the satisfaction a bit richer!