Author Topic: Problem with mid range loads.  (Read 1479 times)

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Offline DJWright

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Problem with mid range loads.
« on: August 11, 2010, 07:35:36 PM »
Hi Veral. would like to start out by saying I have several of your moulds, and a few others. Yours are by far the easiest to cast perfect bullets with that I have ever used.

I have encountered a problem I have not seen before with two of my .44s.
I have e new Ruger Bisley flattop 44 spl., and a new Bisley hunter in .44 mag.
With a 250 gr. LBT WFN it shoots very well with most loads; except when using any charge of Unique under about 10 grs. The standard 7.5 gr. in the spl. sprays 20' groups out at 100 yards! Same in the Hunter and a friends identical gun. Thought it might be just too light a load, but 5.0 of 231 will hit tin cans at 150 yards! So I have very slow and upper end loads shooting great, but no mid range loads using unique. My hunch is that it needs fire lapped as the peak pressure of the faster 231 helps obturation, as well as the upper end loads, where mild pressure loads are not. What do you make of this?
Thanks in advance Veral. My thinking is to break out the lapping kit.
Dennis
I don't worry bout nothin', cuz nothin's alright!

Offline Veral

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 09:47:43 PM »
  For starters, thank you for the compliment on my molds.  Each one has a bit of my heart in it, because I believe that's an essential part of mold making. 

  I've never heard of such severe accuracy problems with Unique, but I quit using it some years ago after developing several loads with Hodgen Universal.  It's accuracy was absolutely superior with about any load that fit the Unique spectrum of usibility, and there was no smoke with Universal.    I've also read, John Linebaugh, no less, the statement that Unique with heavy loads, burns out revolver forcing cones very fast, as does 2400.

  I'm going to have to leave your question with this rather lame answer, and ask you to post your solution when you find it.  Very possibly lapping, and perhaps a better bullet fit to the throats might be the answer, and worth trying to find out.  But understand I'm not giving either suggestion as an answer!

  About ditching Unique.  -- A neighbor who had a garbage service in Cornville came over one evening with two of the large cans of Unique.  One full the other nearly full, and I had just recently bought one, so for a while I was really enjoying the using of Unique.  When I tried the first Universal I set all that Unique powder aside forever, so far as I was concerned.  More because I hate the smoke than it's slightly inferior accuracy, compared to Universal.
Veral Smith

Offline DJWright

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 05:55:50 AM »
 
Ya, no-one else has heard of the problem with Unique in this situation either. But O well, I'm tired of the dirty burning anyway. Will give Universal a try for sure. I have come up with a very mild tack driver however in my .44 spl. with just 5 grs 231. Nice easy recoiling, fun load. Now however I just picked up a new Ruger Bisley Hunter in .44 mag. for a hunting revolver, and am beginning load developement with the same .250 gr. LBT WFN. I'm trying to stay around 1,200 fps for an enjoyable shooting load. Do you have a favorite powder choice for the mag with that bullet weight?

Just cast another 3,000 bullets with that mould last weekend, and every time, I am amazed at how easily your moulds cast. I heated the mould up in the multin alloy, and cast all perfect bullets right from the first pour! No way will any other moulds I have do that. Yours cast so well in fact, that I dread it when I have to use a different  brand for other calibers I have. They are all a pain in my butt compared to an LBT! I plan on getting more of your moulds before you quit making them.

Thanks for the advice Veral; I will let you know if I ever discover the reason for the shotgun groups and Unique. Now, what did I do with the LBT lapping kit. . . . . . . :D
I don't worry bout nothin', cuz nothin's alright!

Offline Veral

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 08:39:05 PM »
  When going for revolver speeds over about 1000  fps, my favorite powder is accurate #9, which originally was surplus government 30 carbine powder, now new manufacture and sold by Hodgen I understand.  It's much like 296 and  H110 which are better when pressures get close to max with 9.  If you can't lay hands on #9, 296 or H110 are excellent and very easy on the throat with stout loads.  There are probably a couple new powders that would be excellent, which I haven't used.

   Don't worry about me quitting the mold business. I don't intend to ever quit, partly because the feds told me not to start this business up again in 2003.  It's my notion that if we all remain free the people who are trying to wreck our freedom will never be able to do it.  The worst they can do is set us free with a bullet. 

  I hope you clearly understand what I'm saying there, and think exactly like I do.
Veral Smith

Offline Terbltim

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 02:37:15 AM »
If I may...
I've fallen in love with mid-power loads (between 1000 and 1250 fps) and now use them for most hunting/shooting purposes, forsaking full-power for when I'm in places where there are Lions, Tigers or Bears (Grizz.)
I shoot 45 Colt (Ruger), 454s and 475s and I am beginning to experiment with a 44-SBH that I got for a project gun. All are commonly loaded for the stated mid-power levels.
I don't do light loads or bullets because I don't enjoy tinkering with my sights to adjust for the difference in where they go.
I stopped using Unique a couple years ago because of what I'll call a small window of good performance.
I learned awhile back that Unique isn't very smokey if you give it more work to do, (heavier bullets along with heavier charges.) When there is enough powder the smoke is dramatically reduced. Thus, I think of it as being a powder for mid-power loads because it smokes at vels below 1000-fps. Its not a "fast" powder so I don't use it like one.
True, its accurate at nearly any velocity but there seems to be an upper threshold for the accuracy. In all my 45 guns it was 1150 fps. When I went to 1200 or more the groups opened up fast no matter what.
Let me be clear, usually they were very accurate for a short distance (around 50 or 75 feet) and then would fly "out", sometimes way out. (I think those loads "upset" the bullets, an interesting phenomenon.)
I think of mid-power as bullets going faster than 1000-fps and not more than 1250-fps.
For that performance range I haven't found a better powder than Accurate Arms #7. It was available for a couple years from the military surplus guys [very cheap too] but by the time I discovered its usefulness [to me] that market was tapped out.
I am recently developing a high opinion of Vihta Vouri's N340 and N350 for mid range loads. Both are very consistent and relatively smoke free at these load levels. About 2/3 full [of space available] seems to give me what I like.
Unfortunately there are no cheap outlets for that powder.
Ramshot's True Blue powder is in the same category of goodness as I've been learning in recent experiments.
One of the best is still Accurate #9 (as Veral mentioned) but I only use it when I can get it from the surplus market (WC820 is what they call it.) I still have a half jug which I guard jealously. Full but not compressed gives me my BEST mid-power 454 load with 325gr bullets. (That load is "ol' reliable" for me.)
In all my large caliber handguns a full [but not compressed] case of 4227 (any Mfr) will give reliable performance at the upper end of "mid-power" for revolvers. I think it might be very gentle on the guns too. Like most powders I've used, it smokes if not given enough work to do.
I'll also agree that getting & using LBT's molds will make you look on all other Mfrs with disdain.
"Stop global whining!"

Offline Veral

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 09:35:43 PM »
  Many of the old powders start a fast pressure spike when they reach a certain pressure.  In other words, as powder is added to increase velocity, and pressures climb with each increase in charge, gradually come to that pressure spike threshold, then pressures rise much more rapidly with each increase in powder added.  H 110, 296, and Accurate 9 are all ball powders which have a straight pressure climb all the way to 100,000 psi.  2400, and I surmise from my experiance, Unique, are two that go on a pressure excursion when they hit a certain ceiling.  As I recall, the ceiling for 2400 is something around 50,000.  If anyone is sure of what it's ceiling is, please set the record straight.  That number is only something that comes from a foggy memory. 

  Having the exact numbers is not  the concern here, but only that reloaders realize such a thing exists, and watch for the effects when building up heavy loads.  It shows on a chronograph quite dramatically.  As a hypothetical example, suppose each .1 grain increase of a powder was increasing velocity by 30 fps, when at a certain point velocities began to go up by 40 or 50 fps per .1 gr of powder increase.  That's the point where one should try working with another powder.

  A load that is at this threshold, and developed in cool weather, will go way over the threshold if shot at considerably higher temperatures.  For example I once loaded up my deer chasing 243 ammo at daybreak, when temps were cool,  for Arizona, then when I got out hunting and temps climbed to near 100, primers were severely flattened and cratered, and the bolt began to open with difficulty.    That was when I learned of the pressure excursion problem, back about 1974 as I recall.
Veral Smith

Offline DJWright

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 07:19:53 PM »
Thanks again guys. Veral, I'm glad to hear you won't be stopping mould production any time soon. If you do, we will all end up having to buy crap! And yes, I do think as you do . . . . . .

Terbltim, good input. I as well am settling on loads at about 1,200 fps. Hotter loads seem a little harder to handle for accurate shooting at longer ranges. I can't fine the powders you named in our shop, except for 4227. Will keep messing with it with a little 296, and 'Lil gun as well, though I understand they like to be pushed hard to shoot best. Again, about 1,200 is my goal in the .44 mag.
Thanks much for the input. I'm all ears. Think my next testing will be with some soft nose, hard base LBTs.
Cheers!
I don't worry bout nothin', cuz nothin's alright!

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2010, 05:04:55 PM »
About ditching Unique.  -- A neighbor who had a garbage service in Cornville came over one evening with two of the large cans of Unique.  One full the other nearly full, and I had just recently bought one, so for a while I was really enjoying the using of Unique.  When I tried the first Universal I set all that Unique powder aside forever, so far as I was concerned.  More because I hate the smoke than it's slightly inferior accuracy, compared to Universal.

Was this the old version of Unique or the new formulation?  Only curious, because I have had great success in .45 ACP, .45 COLT, .40 S&W and some .45-70 light loadings using Unique.  I haven't been doing it as long as many here, but I hear a lot of the negativity refers to the old version.  Any good luck, but I love Unique in my loads currently.  ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline Veral

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 07:40:09 PM »
  I had no idea that Unique had ever changed!
 
  I was given those cans in the mid 80's and am sure the guy who purchased them had bought them quite a while before, then probably went to his final rest.  I don't know of any reloaders who buy powder in large cans and give it to the trash man!  This trashman neighbor got guns and amunition regularly, from people who were afraid it would kill somebody if left in their house!

  Unique is certainly not a bad powder!  I liked it a lot till I tried Universal, which filled the same nich without smoke, with far less muzzle blast, and no blinding muzzle flash when shooting at night.  At the time I had burned so much powder for the previous several years that I had developed quite an alergy to the smoke, so not having to put up with the sneezing after playing with my favorite loads for a while was quite a relief.
Veral Smith

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Problem with mid range loads.
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 06:35:13 PM »
I was just curious.  I was told that a lot of the negativity against Unique was due to the old formulation was all.  Sounds like your issues also.  ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.