Author Topic: Need Help! (Read 2156 times)

GLS · « **on:** January 05, 2011, 08:38:23 AM »

Last year I purchased a 1/3rd scale, 1 inch bore, 6 pdr. cannon barrel with the high hopes of getting back into black powder cannons (had a antique bronze mountain howitzer in the 70’s).
Of course I bought the barrel before finding Grey Beards and then learn that some folks make barrels with welded liners. Well I went ahead and built a carriage and planed to mount it on my sailboat this year. A fine day appeared last week and I went to the back forty and fired it seven times with 200 grains of ffg foil pack blank loads no wads.

When I got back to the house and finished cleaning I noticed something on the barrel that looked like scratches.

Under a 30X microscope you could see were metal had spalled off and a small crack. Looks like the whole left side could go. I sealed the vent and bore and applied a vacuum test and found the liner does not leak so no liner leak.

Glad I caught it before I hurt myself or someone else. I realize I cannot shoot it again and have an expensive ornament. I removed the copper vent liner I installed and plugged (spiked) the vent. Looks like faulty casting to me. Wish I had found Grey Beards before the purchase. The barrel maker wants to sell me another barrel but why would I want to take a chance for another piece of worthless (to me) metal.

I really like the look/lines of this barrel. Any ideas of a replacement that might fit my carriage? Hate to have to start over and this size is just right for my boat but realize I have to spend more money to satify my itch. Send me a PM if needed.

Double D · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2011, 09:00:15 AM »

I suspect several things going on here.

I think from you post that htis gun has a liner. I think the liner saved you from a catastrophic failure. I also suspect the liner was too thin. When the gun fired the steel expanded and cracked the cast iron/steel. It would be interesting to know if the liner was cast in place-core cast or machnined and inserted.

How about some details. These type will help the next guy down the road stay safel

Does this cannon have a liner?

How thick is the liner?

The bore is 1 inch, what is the outside diameter of the barrel over the breech?

The only thing you did that might be questionable is the use of FFg. Since you were firing blank loads, I do think this is terribly significant. For projectile in one inch use nothing smaller than Fg.

dan610324 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2011, 09:04:29 AM »

first of all , WHO MADE IT ??
MUST GET A WARNING OUT TO ALL OTHER WHO MAYBE ARE THINKING OF TO BUY FROM THAT MANUFACTURER

this is nothing that should happened on a seriously built replica cannon
so if the manufacturer doesnt want to compensate you I guess its time to let the name out and let people know that he isnt serious and makes low quality crap

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2011, 01:07:58 PM »

Quote from: GLS on January 05, 2011, 08:38:23 AM

...
I removed the copper vent liner I installed and plugged (spiked) the vent.
...

A belated WELCOME to the board!

What you did was simply VERY responsible; thank you for posting the pix and the story behind it.

Can you take inside diameter measurements of the bore? It might reveal a swelling.

GLS · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2011, 01:43:53 AM »

The barrel in question is a Grey-Star. It is a cast in place welded tube liner. Measured and found it to be well centered in cannon (within few hundreds). Cleared some paint and measured the liner last night and find it to be 1/8 inch (little thin for my taste and not seamless). Barrel diameter over breach measures 3.25 inch, 3.0 inch by the trunnions and 2.25 inch at the thinest part near muzzle. The end of the bore is 2.5 inches from the end of the barrel. I have not measured the inner bore yet but I do now suspect swelling. Back by the crack area it looks like the weld is opening up. May not have gone all the way through but was on the way. I have also found another crack that goes through the 4 inch diameter ring at the end of the barrel breach. Looking it over more under the microscope the only fresh break metel in on the surface and not in the cracks. It also appears there is weld splatter along the lines of the cracks (no other areas) that is not noticable when veiwed by the eye.
Thanks for the support

Double D · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2011, 02:08:49 AM »

What weld? Why would there be weld on the outside of a cast barrel? Can you provide the board with more detailed pictures? Was the vent drilled? Is the liner seamless?

RocklockI · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2011, 05:49:23 AM »

Looks like a 1841 6lber .

Hern offers these for sale lined ready to go .

ETA never mind they are full scale and 2/3s scale .

If you like that style barrel go with it ,but I don't believe 1841s where ever in Navel carriges .

Gary

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2011, 06:10:15 AM »

Gary,

I believe the 1841 (or is that 1840) and the machined version 1844 were mounted on Naval gun carriages on the city class ironclads. As i understand the armament on these vessels was a more less a collection of what ever they could get there hands on. At least one carriage on. The Cairo had a naval carriage with siege carriage elevator instead of a quion.

dan610324 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2011, 06:26:33 AM »

cant find much info about grey star on the net either
just that they have both welded and seamless liners

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2011, 07:08:11 AM »

Quote from: dan610324 on January 06, 2011, 06:26:33 AM

cant find much info about grey star on the net either
just that they have both welded and seamless liners

You are looking in the wrong place Dan. Start here. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,117067.0.html

dan610324 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2011, 08:08:09 AM »

lots of interesting info there

it seem that they had problems before with their barrels

after what I read here about this cannon and the companies way to deal with the problem and try to sell a new barrel instead of behave in a responsible way and send a new barrel is crazy .
what I think of that id--t cant be written here

dont he understand that his crap barrels will kill someone soon
I would say that this time it was very close

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2011, 08:42:11 AM »

Here is a positive posting. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,117067.0.html

GLS · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2011, 05:00:00 AM »

Quote from: Double D on January 06, 2011, 02:08:49 AM

What weld? Why would there be weld on the outside of a cast barrel? Can you provide the board with more detailed pictures? Was the vent drilled? Is the liner seamless?

The barrel in question is a Grey-Star. It is a cast in place welded tube liner. Measured and found it to be well centered in cannon (within few hundreds). Cleared some paint and measured the liner last night and find it to be 1/8 inch (little thin for my taste and not seamless). Barrel diameter over breach measures 3.25 inch, 3.0 inch by the trunnions and 2.25 inch at the thinest part near muzzle. The end of the bore is 2.5 inches from the end of the barrel. I have not measured the inner bore yet but I do now suspect swelling. Back by the crack area it looks like the weld is opening up. May not have gone all the way through but was on the way. I have also found another crack that goes through the 4 inch diameter ring at the end of the barrel breach. Looking it over more under the microscope the only fresh break metel in on the surface and not in the cracks. It also appears there is weld splatter along the lines of the cracks (no other areas) that is not noticable when veiwed by the eye.

It was a Grey Star barrel. I know he claims the barrels are for orniments on his web site but so does Herns. He sends instructions with the barrel instructing you how to drill the vent hole (but does not mention a vent liner) and then states that a projectile load should be 100 gr ffg with a max load of 200gr ffg.
I'd hate to see what he recommends for a blank load. I asked Grey Star if he had any seamless barrels and the answer was "no, don't make them anymore" and was offered a copy of what I had.I suspect a weld as the only place around the crack fresh shiny metal is to be seen is at the very surface of the barrel, down in the cracks the metal is black. The weld splatter looks like mig splatter to me but is only visible under magnification. I only see this splatter around the cracks. The barrel has grinder marks all over the barrel and the maker stated those were from grinding out of the mold. The barrel came without a vent hole. I drilled and then machined and threaded it for a vent liner, one that would seal the transition between the barrel and barrel liner. I found the instructions for this elsewhere on this site. I made a copper vent liner and liked it so much I will do this to any future lined barrels. The liner in this barrel was welded not seamless. I was under the impression the barrel was seamless when I purchased it but guess I just did not read the web information correctly.

Double D · « **Reply #13 on:** January 07, 2011, 06:47:53 AM »

Several years ago there were some reported problems with Graystar barrels. You will find some discussion and additional links other discussion in this post.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,117067.0.html. In each failure Graystar stood behind their product and made good on the damaged barrel.

During the time of those failures I pulled the link I had on the caannon link list. The owner of Gray star took great exception to that and contacted me. H e said he had been making theses guns for years and never had a problem before. He explained the casting was his business and he knew what he was doing. He said he didn't see any need for a seamless liner and was oblivious to the N-SSA and AAA standards. He agreed to make seamless liners available and put it on his website. When he did that I put the link to Graystar back on the link list.

It now appears that all that Graystar said was lip service. I am now going to remove Graystar form the link list. This is pretty drastic and I have only ever removed three other active links. (Cannon-mania dba Flash60 LLC, Missouri Cannon Works, and Cannon Superstore.)

Just because you are knowledgeable in casting metal, does not mean you know how to cast a cannon. That sure seems to apply in this case.

http://greystarcannontech.homestead.com/star.html Graystar, Gray star, Gray-star, Greystar, Grey star, Grey-star

Parrott-Cannon · « **Reply #14 on:** January 07, 2011, 10:19:19 AM »

A 1/8 inch seamless liner would fail at approximately 8700 psi and would expand at approximately 6500 psi based on the tensile strength reported on the GrayStar web site. Obviously the welded liner must have a lower pressure tolerence. According to my intenal ballisitc calculations of the blank shot with 200 grains of powder a max pressure of 4300 psi could be achieved.

I have looked at this cannon provider's web site and considered the puechase of 1/3 scale 6 pounder. Thank you, DD for removing them from the forum stick notes.

dan610324 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 07, 2011, 10:31:19 AM »

its good that this info comes out in the open

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:49:13 AM »

Sadly it is necessary to bring this post back to the top.

Quote from: Double D on April 15, 2007, 05:47:15 PM

There have been problems with Graystar. They were the first listing on our cannon list to have a warning. For a long time they told people that seamless liner was unnecessary. We argued back and forth with them and finally they added the option of a seamless liner and we took our warning down from their listing.

Then we had two different people come on here and report that their liners were crooked. The first one was a bit of a battle but Graystar finally stood behind their product and replaced the defective barrel.

The second barrel was a little less problem but Graystar replaced that one also.

Here are some of the links.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,60501.msg365177.html#msg365177

and

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,90786.0.html

and

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,60501.msg381127.html#msg381127

If i were buying as barrel from Grey-star I would be inclined to ask if the would certifiy that their liner meets N-SSA standards.

Here is an explanation of The weakness of Welded Seam liners.

GLS · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:13:22 AM »

I want to thank you all for your help. I just received my new 1" bore tube this week. It was made by a GBO BPM&C Sponsor, HMR cannon. Ed does excellent work. Can't wait to fire it. The 1F powder should arrive today.

Gerald

Cannoneer · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:44:45 AM »

GLS,
Congratulations are in order for getting your new cannon, that's a fine looking M1841 6-pdr. I would also take a bet that you're never going to have the same issues that you had with the Grey-Star barrel. I've seen some safety tests that Ed has conducted on one of his barrels, and he makes 'em solid.

Mike H. · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:44:19 AM »

Quote from: GLS on February 17, 2011, 07:13:22 AM

I want to thank you all for your help. I just received my new 1" bore tube this week. It was made by a GBO BPM&C Sponsor, HMR cannon. Ed does excellent work. Can't wait to fire it. The 1F powder should arrive today.

Gerald

Well, that is great for you. I am a little let down though. I contacted Ed this past August regarding 1" bores. He responded with: "I regret to say I have nothing in 1" bore. I have .75 's and 1.73's. Nothing in between." He must have started making them since then. I just got a turned 1" bore 1841 from another source, that I will be posting more info on soon. I would rather have bought it from Ed, though.

armorer77 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:00:58 PM »

In my defence , this was my first . Armorer77

Cannoneer · « **Reply #21 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:57:34 PM »

Dang, you are busy aren't ya!

Mike H. · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:47:46 AM »

Quote from: armorer77 on February 18, 2011, 01:00:58 PM

In my defence , this was my first . Armorer77

I would much rather have bought it from you..... And still could.... Was that a one time turn or a new line? Any others coming off the line?

Double D · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:52:37 AM »

Start a new thread to talk about Ed's new cannon.