44 special vs 44 magnum

[mrussel]

Is there a difference between Starline 44 magnum brass and 44 special brass except the length (is 44 spc weaker?) I was give a whole bunch of 44 special brass today and was wondering if I could load them with the same 13 grains of accurate #5 Ive been loading in the 44 magnum cases. Seating to the same overall length I would think would give me the same internal volume and should be just fine,since I dont have any 44 special guns that I could confuse it with.

[1sourdough]

  Most of what I've read would lead me to believe the brass is made to the same specs, just shorter. To the other question about the 44 mag loads in the case, how could they be loaded to the same overall length? The bullet may be not seated to a depth to hold properly? In general I don't like the idea of loading a shortened case to a higher level just because 'it will only be fired in a magnum gun'. The same with loading 38 cases at upper levels to be shot 'only in a 357'. I'm just saying "stuff happens". Now you don't have any use for some proper 44spcl loads with your 44 mags?? I think most anyone can find some use for the lighter loads in a 44 mag. The next option is to load at the top end of 44 spcl data, that's somewhat of a compromise solution.

[jedman]

   I have a H & R single shot carbine that has a 44 special length chamber but has a throat long enough to seat bullets to 44 mag length.    I have Starline 44 SPL. cases that I have loaded with 44 mag. loads of H 110, WW 296, & Lil Gun using the Hornady 300 gr. XTP bullet that has 2 crimp grooves, loaded with the bullet crimped in the second groove about 1.600 OAL.
   The gun is a ejector and I worked the loads up a little at a time watching for any pressure signs or sticky ejection and have not had any problems what so ever.
 If you are going to load these for a revolver I would make sure you have a crimp on your bullet choice so the bullet doesnt move from recoil.   But to your Questiion about Starline brand cases , I have sectioned them and the head thickness and cartridge walls appear to be as thick as any 44 mag cases that I have sectioned.  Jed

[Graybeard]

Can you do it? Yes

Should you do it? Well that's a question you need to answer.

There should be no strength difference in the cases only a difference in length.

Elmer Keith got the ball rolling on the .44 Magnum using old balloon head (weak) .44 special brass and loaded them to at least the pressure the magnum is currently loaded to. Yeah he blew up a few guns but lived thru it and finally got the cartridge he wanted from the factories.

Generally speaking you need to use a heavy crimp on the rounds and most bullets don't have proper crimp grooves or cannelures to seat bullets in the shorter case to same length as in the magnum case. Some however do and I guess you could always taper crimp rather than roll crimp. So there are few technical difficulties in doing it.

Still generally speaking I don't like the idea as you never can be 100% certain some of your hot loaded rounds won't find their way into a weaker gun and blow it up. It's a safety issue and you must make that decision for yourself.

Have I done such things myself? Yup I sure have but not in the .44 I have however loaded .38 special cases to very high pressures in line with the .357 Magnum for use in magnum revolvers and hoped I'd never let one get into a weaker action. I believe I was successful in that effort as I never took a .38 special apart with any of them and all are long since gone. These days I'm less inclined to repeat such.

For what it's worth both rounds (.357 and .44 magnums) are loaded these days to far lower pressures than they originally were and the pressures I loaded to in those long ago years.

[mrussel]

  Most of what I've read would lead me to believe the brass is made to the same specs, just shorter. To the other question about the 44 mag loads in the case, how could they be loaded to the same overall length? The bullet may be not seated to a depth to hold properly? In general I don't like the idea of loading a shortened case to a higher level just because 'it will only be fired in a magnum gun'. The same with loading 38 cases at upper levels to be shot 'only in a 357'. I'm just saying "stuff happens". Now you don't have any use for some proper 44spcl loads with your 44 mags?? I think most anyone can find some use for the lighter loads in a 44 mag. The next option is to load at the top end of 44 spcl data, that's somewhat of a compromise solution.

Oddly enough,my loading manuals show the 44spcl actually has a OAL of 1.615 and the magnum has an OAL of 1.610.The only difference in case dimensions are that the special has a length of 1.160 and the magnum has a length of 1.285.

[mrussel]

Can you do it? Yes

Should you do it? Well that's a question you need to answer.

There should be no strength difference in the cases only a difference in length.

Elmer Keith got the ball rolling on the .44 Magnum using old balloon head (weak) .44 special brass and loaded them to at least the pressure the magnum is currently loaded to. Yeah he blew up a few guns but lived thru it and finally got the cartridge he wanted from the factories.

Generally speaking you need to use a heavy crimp on the rounds and most bullets don't have proper crimp grooves or cannelures to seat bullets in the shorter case to same length as in the magnum case. Some however do and I guess you could always taper crimp rather than roll crimp. So there are few technical difficulties in doing it.

Still generally speaking I don't like the idea as you never can be 100% certain some of your hot loaded rounds won't find their way into a weaker gun and blow it up. It's a safety issue and you must make that decision for yourself.

Have I done such things myself? Yup I sure have but not in the .44 I have however loaded .38 special cases to very high pressures in line with the .357 Magnum for use in magnum revolvers and hoped I'd never let one get into a weaker action. I believe I was successful in that effort as I never took a .38 special apart with any of them and all are long since gone. These days I'm less inclined to repeat such.

For what it's worth both rounds (.357 and .44 magnums) are loaded these days to far lower pressures than they originally were and the pressures I loaded to in those long ago years.

In my opinion Keith was kinda crazy in that regard. Im not saying he didnt know what he was doing,he most certainly did,but you gotta be a little nutty to "blow up a few guns". Of course,I have a certain respect for skilled insanity,but I wouldn't want to go there myself.

[mrussel]

Can you do it? Yes

Should you do it? Well that's a question you need to answer.

There should be no strength difference in the cases only a difference in length.

Elmer Keith got the ball rolling on the .44 Magnum using old balloon head (weak) .44 special brass and loaded them to at least the pressure the magnum is currently loaded to. Yeah he blew up a few guns but lived thru it and finally got the cartridge he wanted from the factories.

Generally speaking you need to use a heavy crimp on the rounds and most bullets don't have proper crimp grooves or cannelures to seat bullets in the shorter case to same length as in the magnum case. Some however do and I guess you could always taper crimp rather than roll crimp. So there are few technical difficulties in doing it.

Still generally speaking I don't like the idea as you never can be 100% certain some of your hot loaded rounds won't find their way into a weaker gun and blow it up. It's a safety issue and you must make that decision for yourself.

Have I done such things myself? Yup I sure have but not in the .44 I have however loaded .38 special cases to very high pressures in line with the .357 Magnum for use in magnum revolvers and hoped I'd never let one get into a weaker action. I believe I was successful in that effort as I never took a .38 special apart with any of them and all are long since gone. These days I'm less inclined to repeat such.

For what it's worth both rounds (.357 and .44 magnums) are loaded these days to far lower pressures than they originally were and the pressures I loaded to in those long ago years.

 I heard that the original spec was 43k and they load them now to 40k or less. The BB +P+ are (according to an email) loaded to mid to high 40s. What I'm using now is a lee factory crimp die on Berrys 240gr jacketed hollow points which have no groove. I just crimp it real good and it seems to work fine. It actually crimps into the bullet a little. Ill give it some though,the idea that it COULD end up in the wrong gun is certainly a point,on the other hand,I have some of these BB +P+ that are way beyond normal 44 specs and are dangerous in anything but the guns on the list although thankfully their OAL is too long for most guns so they wont actually fit.

[srussell]

elmer keith.s loads are not evan in the books any more.

[Graybeard]

I'm not sure what pressures the original two magnums were loaded to or are now but they are rather tame now compared to what they used to be. The standard for the .357 Magnum used to be a 158 grain at 1550 fps and I've shot a huge pile of those in factory loads as well as the max handloads the books used to list. Now a 125 grain barely reaches 1250 fps in most factory loads according to the ammo makers.

The .44 magnum still can be found in loading manuals close to the original specs but it seems with every new manual they are backing down a bit. Most factory loads now list velocities a good 200-250 fps less than they were when I began shooting it.

I can feel a significant difference in recoil between the current factory ammo and the factory ammo I used to buy 30 or more years ago. In fact I was looking at specs on some ammo in a new sales flyer I got and it showed a 124 grain 9mm at only about 50 fps less than the same brand .357 mag 125 grain. That's ridiculous there used to be more like 400+ fps difference even if you compared 158s to 124s.

[mrussel]

I'm not sure what pressures the original two magnums were loaded to or are now but they are rather tame now compared to what they used to be. The standard for the .357 Magnum used to be a 158 grain at 1550 fps and I've shot a huge pile of those in factory loads as well as the max handloads the books used to list. Now a 125 grain barely reaches 1250 fps in most factory loads according to the ammo makers.

The .44 magnum still can be found in loading manuals close to the original specs but it seems with every new manual they are backing down a bit. Most factory loads now list velocities a good 200-250 fps less than they were when I began shooting it.

I can feel a significant difference in recoil between the current factory ammo and the factory ammo I used to buy 30 or more years ago. In fact I was looking at specs on some ammo in a new sales flyer I got and it showed a 124 grain 9mm at only about 50 fps less than the same brand .357 mag 125 grain. That's ridiculous there used to be more like 400+ fps difference even if you compared 158s to 124s.

 I agree. Its ridiculous. If they cant get their guns to handle the full loads,just dont make them. Instead we end up with downgraded ammo becuase they want to bore out the chambers and slap magnum on the side of it. Then it seems the ammo makers feel they have to downgrade it so some idiot does not blow himself up. Its not like Rugers are expensive guns made out of exotic materials. They are just solidly built for reasonable prices. If you cant make a magnum that hang with the big dogs,leave the chamber ,short,call it a special and move over for those who can.

[Lloyd Smale]

this isnt true of only the 44 mag. Buy a box of newer 2506, 7 mag ect and youll find velocitys are about a 100-200 fps slower then they were 20 years ago. I think its not only a matter of the fact that everyone is sue happy these days and companys are leary of it and the fact that just like when you buy a product like a bag of chips ahoy cookies and find that the package is just as big but the cookies have become half the size. Im sure that loading companys figure that if they save a grain of powder with every round they make it makes for much better profit margins. As to handloading the main reason many loading manuals show lighter loads then they did 2o or 30 years ago is because theres just to many idiots out there that take a loading manual and figure there conservitive and can add two or three grains of powder to every load in them.

[mrussel]

this isnt true of only the 44 mag. Buy a box of newer 2506, 7 mag ect and youll find velocitys are about a 100-200 fps slower then they were 20 years ago. I think its not only a matter of the fact that everyone is sue happy these days and companys are leary of it and the fact that just like when you buy a product like a bag of chips ahoy cookies and find that the package is just as big but the cookies have become half the size. Im sure that loading companys figure that if they save a grain of powder with every round they make it makes for much better profit margins. As to handloading the main reason many loading manuals show lighter loads then they did 2o or 30 years ago is because theres just to many idiots out there that take a loading manual and figure there conservitive and can add two or three grains of powder to every load in them.

 Dont even get me started on 8mm. Apperantly Americans are too stupid to know that I (or J) and IS (or JS) are two DIFFERENT cartridges that are NOT interchangable,or so the American ammo companies would have us beleive.