Compare your 7mm-08 to .280 if you have them...

[tacklebury]

Hey 7mm guys, I've been seriously considering a 7mm chambering.  I really liked my 7x57mm Mauser, but it was a small ring and had limited reload capability due to the weaker action, so I sold it a bit ago.  I am now looking at several different 7mm's and decided that I wasn't going for a 7x57 due to minimal offerings, ie. Ruger #1 (too expensive) and mil surps.  The one issue I have with the Handi is the shorter barrel, I would really like a 24", but even most of the bolt actions are now 22".  I think the 7mm-08 is where I'm heading, but wondered if there is any advantage to the .280 in your findings.  Per a few articles I've read, the gains are minimal in the .280 and it tends to recoil harder.  Any feedback is appreciated.  I am also looking at the Marlin XS7, Mossberg ATR100, Stevens/Savage 200, Savage Edge and Weatherby Vangard.  Some are about the same price as the Handi, but I like the simplicity of the Handi and always have.  This will be my only permanently scoped centerfire and I'll be shooting about 500 yards maximum.  Right now, the ATR100 is slightly in the lead if I can find one with sights, because I like having sights as a back-up and it seems to be the only offering, other than a couple pricier options with them.

Article example: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_48/ai_80635892/?tag=content;col1

Thanks in advance! 

[petemi]

I did some work on a neighbor's Handi .280 a while back, and at the time compared it to my 7mm-08 Handi.  I didn't see any difference at 300 yards  The recoil is somewhat sharper in the .280, but nowhere near crippling.  I'd say it's roughly the same as my .308 depending on the size of the bullet being pushed.  The .308 is super accurate, and makes me question why I even have the 7mm.  It'll reach out 500 yards and have more energy delivered when it gets there.....1100 compared to 800 with a 165 gr. bullet.  The same Rem CL bullet out of the .280 delivers 800 again at 500 yards, so I'd say it was a toss-up......but I'd still stick with my .308.

Pete

[NFG]

Do a search...there has been a bit of comparison work already.

No different than comparing the 308 and the 30-06...20% larger case, roughly 5% more velocity, give or take...apples and oranges for the most part "depending".  If you use the same bullet, same barrel length, loaded to the same pressures, the 280 will have higher velocity, higher energy and less drop at all ranges.

They BOTH will do one large as far as targets or game is concerned, but the 280 will have a bunch less drop tho'...the 280 at ~2800fs with Sierra 175 MK Match, BC 0.608, has ~307" drop at 1000, the 7mm-08 at ~2600fs with the same bullet at 2600fs has ~363" drop(roughly 5 feet).  The bullets are still supersonic for both cartridges.

No matter how you cut the pie or what distance you pick, the 280 has more velocity and energy, gets there faster, less drop and not a whole lot more recoil if the rifles weigh the same.

I have 2 - 7mm-08's right now, one pistol and one switch barrel for a Ruger action rifle. I've built several 280/7mm Express's and 284's(pistol and rifle, standard and long throated) and 7mm RM's.  I keep looking for a cheap 280 barrel for my NEF.  I like the .284 cal, but go to a larger caliber for larger game even though the 280 will take ANY NA game. 

I had a 7x57 Ruger early on, but it had the wrong twist and the wrong throating.  I did an AI chambering but that didn't help either, but today the 7x57 is both twisted right and has a throat for "standard" loadings.  I would stay away from military actions unless you want to go whole hog with your wallet, besides the 7mmWSM and/or 7 SAUM would be my picks in todays world.

I think comparisons between cartridges are largely a ego trip because we end up comparing  a banana to a chocolate chip cookie and go to great lengths to "prove" our questionable point, but it is very hard not to compare something to something if we want to equate those "somethings" in some meaningful way.

Lots of choices...pick one of them, they're all great cartridges...and work up loads for whatever activities you like.

Luck

[petemi]

Good post, NFG.

Thanks,

Pete

[Graybeard]

Same comparison as .308 to .30-06. Loaded to the same pressure levels you can expect about 100 fps more from the longer case but in both cases (.308 and 7-08) they are actually loaded by the ammo makers to higher pressure levels than the two longer rounds are.

I've long wanted but never have managed to buy a .280 but have been shooting the 7-08 since it first came out. What one will do so will the other. I'd not do anything with one I'd not do with the other and that applies to both the .30s and to the two 7mms.

[NFG]

When the 280 first came out it was loaded to a much lower pressure than the 270 so it got a lot of bad press when the two were compared...but then someone figured out you could load the 280 to the same pressure as the 270 and things got a little closer and the nit-picking, hair splitting REALLY began.  

And comparisons got downright naughty when the barrel lengths were fudged and RN's were compared to SP's, and NO ONE read the fine print.

Then Rem tried to stuff the toothpaste back in the tube and really confused the issue by renaming the 280 to 7mm Express and got people's minds messed up between the 7mm Express and the 7mm Rem Mag.

One good thing about the 270/280 cases...you get a ~0.050" longer case which translates to a little more case capacity so you can make the calibers based on the longer case and loaded to a longer COAL, with a longer barrel and AI'ed, tack on an additional 100-200 fs when you do it right.

The long throated 284 Win I did just for kicks, loaded long and shot through a 28" bbl would produce velocities that were biting the heels of my 7mmRM loaded "normaly", with all but the heaviest bullets and with less powder.  Of course, I could get much more than standard velocities out of the 7mmRM doing the same thing...it is all relative.

Of course, no one believes that except us wildcatters that done did it. Hahahahahahah...and that's the fun of this sport.

Luck

[tacklebury]

Thanks for the inputs, some good ones.  I have read many articles, and brainstormed with guys at the range here, but keep reading and seeing that you can get minimal gains for the extra recoil.  Sounds like some pretty significant gains from reading NFG's post though and real world experience is more what I'm seeking.  In the article link I posted, the author from Guns Magazine stated it was only like a 200 FPS gain and I didn't see much in his post about trajectory.  I would really like to know, and yes I understand every gun can vary, whether the recoil in equally sized Handi Rifles in 7mm-08 and .280 are similar.  Pete, was your neighbor's gun a Handi Rifle also or at least same weight range?  If so, then I might still go that way.  I had looked at the 7mm SAUM, but cost of ammo and difficulty/cost of available dies is keeping me away from this and the short magnums.  Around here at least, there doesn't seem to be any shortage of 7mm-08 or .280, although the edge goes to the 7mm-08.  I have considered the .308 & 30-06 also, but for now am looking this way for a few reasons including the High BC bullet selection.  The one big plus for the .280 for me is that based on the 26" barrel, while if recoil is significantly less on the 7mm-08 I might do that anyway if the other differences are not too extreme.

As for comparisons, the main thing I'd like to hear is felt recoil in the Handi's though and out of the box accuracy.  I have read reviews of quite a few people on several of the bolt actions and Number one's, but this is THE place for Handi info for me. 

Appreciate all the inputs!  I've still got a while until I make a final decision most likely, but would love to hear any other thoughts. 

[tacklebury]

Dohh, just re-read your post Pete and I see it was a Handi you were comparing.  Thanks, good to know it wasn't super significant. 

[myarmor]

The 280 Handis have an awesome rep around here, and you would have a hard time finding any 26" 280 barrel rifle as you stated most are either 22 or 24". With the longer tube you are getting borderline 7mmMag velocities. So , in a Handi, I would take the 280 and put some nice Laminated stocks on it and not worry about the recoil Just my 2cents.





-Aaron

[quickdtoo]

If you up the ante by Improving the 280 Rem, you can match 7Mag velocities. 

Tim

[myarmor]

Yep! love those long tubes the 280 rocks.
O...REM if ya hearing......MORE PLEASE!!!... just when ever you get around to it Thanks

[NFG]

Ballistics is just physics...to understand what is going on you need to read books on physics, math and books written by Ballisticians...NOT the internet...you have already began to equated recoil with a brand name rather than the mathematical concept.

Recoil is related to WEIGHT and velocity of the gun, bullets, powder and there are several ways to mitigate recoil.

Besides the NEF is limited in the strength of the receiver...you start pushing that limit and you're asking for trouble.  The CASE and SAAMI specs for the '06 family of cartridges runs ~ 60KPSI at the top end...you can go a bit farther in a bolt gun but no way would I push that in a Handi.

The 7mm RM is SAAMI at 61KPSI whereas most other belted mags are in the 64-64KPSI range and handloaders push that range also...the 280 is ~60KPSI so there isn't much difference as far as the pressure is concerned...BUT the case capacity is 68 to 81, a 16% difference in favor of the 7RM.  The only way a 280 or 280 AI will equal the 7RM in velocity is by pushing one and going low on the other.  Been there, done that and  the results are short case life  and more wear and tear on the weapon.  As in engines...there is NO substitutes for CUBES.

As I said, doing all the nuances to a 7RM the same as doing those same nuances to the 280 will STILL keep the results AT LEAST 16% higher in the 7RM.  Pushing a Handi is totally not the thing to do in my view.

Again Tackelbury...if you want to learn the inside skinny on ballistics, break out the books.  Use the internet as a place to develop questions and the books as a place to answer them...not the other way around.  There is WAY to much totally wrong information and personal bias on the 'net.

Luck

[Graybeard]

Amen to that.

Wild catters get those super velocities by one of two methods. They increase pressure to blue pill proof load pressure levels or they invent velocity results without regard to what the chrono says.

There are no free lunches. Ya either increase case capacity or pressure to get more velocity. Barness says his research shows about a 1% velocity gain for a 4% increase in case capacity. While I don't much care for the fellow and most of his opinions I happen to agree with this one.

More than that and your pressures are in the danger zone.

[quickdtoo]

No wildcatting necessary with the 280 Improved, Nosler and Hodgdon as well as Sierra have done that work for you, check out the Nosler 6th RL22 data for both, the 280Imp data is in a 26" barrel, 7Mag is 24". In the H&R, you gain and additional advantage due to no being able to set the barrel back, the "Improved-improved" chamber as Wayne calls it holds .9gr more water than a 280 Ackley chamber when compared with factory Nosler 280 Improved brass.

Tim

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[tacklebury]

Ballistics is just physics...to understand what is going on you need to read books on physics, math and books written by Ballisticians...NOT the internet...you have already began to equated recoil with a brand name rather than the mathematical concept.

Thanks NFG again, but I think you are misunderstanding what I was looking for.  I happen to be a mechanical engineer and have had physics, Calculus through II and Linear Algebra.  In my experience the books account for part of the reality, but getting real world feedback on a specific items is often much more applicable.

Thanks Tim for the info and I'll look at the AI also.  Looks like you were getting good accuracy, so if I see one of those 26" barreled 280's I will probably jump on that.  The H&R website states that the .280 comes with a 26" barrel, but apparently, that isn't always the case.  If I cannot find a long barreled one, I'll probably go 7mm-08 or one of the bolt actions. 

Appreciate the feedback. 

[quickdtoo]

The 280 has always been made with a 26" barrel, any 280 H&R barrel that's shorter has been cut, same for the 25-06.  

Tim

[tacklebury]

Ok, some of the replies above made me think it wasn't.    Very happy that it is!

[NFG]

You're having had the math puts you well on your way...now get either Quick Load or Load from a disk and also use the online Powley calculators.  Once you have those in place then the playing fast and loose with the truth will become very appearant.

Graybeard...while every wildcatter I've ever come across including myself will push the envelope...really the only way to find out just WHAT each individual rifle will handle...I DON'T work with "Blue Pill" loads...that's just plain stupid.   The object in wildcatting is to increase AND optimize performance, not to walk on the edge of destruction or blow a gun apart, plus while loads like that may be great BS or bragging loads, one shot per case is just plain un-ecomonical, and you will soon get to be known as "Dangerous Dan, the stay away from Man".

A custom made weapon with a minimum chamber, close fitting bolt, matched dies will handle pressure that will cause a sloppy fit rifle to come apart.

Of course humans are humans and we all break out in stupid now and then....and we seek to "prove" our case continually.  Anyone who'es done this for any length of time knows there is variation in everything connected to this sport...bullets, powders, cases, chronos, BARRELS, and most of all, capabilities when it comes to mucking about with things that go boom.

I have two chronos...a Beta Chrony and a Oehler 33 from the late 50's, early 60's.  I have then set up one in front of the other and I have switched their places now and then, just to check them out.  They NEVER give the same velocity...the Beta Chrony seems to be a bit optimistic no matter what position is occupies.  I pay close attention to what the chronos say, what the software and load manuals say, and what SAMMI says, but I also know the other side of the coin, and how to go about getting maximum velocity AND maximum accuracy, both of which are well over what is published in the manuals.

Trying to get that point across...the safety aspect, optimization in all parameters and the ways to exceed the "normal parameters" is like walking on hot coals.  Keep your mind straight and you're safe...get distracted and you burn your feet along with someone elses maybe. 

How often do I give my little spiel on the rifle as a "system that needs all parameters optimized" to get the best performance, yet very few ever post that they did and what a difference it made.

I have to bite my tongue and go have a cup of java sometimes when a subject like this one comes up so I don't cut loose and turn the air blue in exaspiration or give out information that is dangerous to the uninitiated.

As I said...for the most part and due to the foibles of the human condition, the internet ISN'T the place to gain knowedge unless you develope a solid base in math, physics and get out there and do the work on the range and in the shop.  Sweat equity, getting dirt under your fingernails and paying the price are things unknown in todays world of the net and information technology.  I'm not yet sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing...I sure spent a lot of time and money learning this "thing...if the net was available way back then, I could have spent that hard earned money on better wood for the stocks and higher quality barrels...

There are a few very good forums, 6mmBR is one of the best, but you still DON'T know who you are talking to or who is doing the talking.  To me  that is like playing Russian Roulette.

Luck

[tacklebury]

The article at 6mmBR on the 7mm's is one of the big reason's I'm heading down this path.  I did find a few .280's for sale, now to see if in a month or so they are still available.  Gotta save up.  I don't go into debt for toys.    Appreciate the info and I looked at that Powley Calculator, but it only appears to work for IMR powders, unless I'm missing something.  Will play with it some more, but if I can get ahold of one, I think I'll have fun regardless.

[NFG]

The Powley calcaulator is for IMR powders because the have a linear burn rate...no surprises for the most part, unlike many other powders.

By the way, you being a mechanical engineer, you should have access to a computer with the software to do a structural analysis on the Handi receiver...or more precisely, an analysis on the SB1 vs the SB2 receivers.  You could give a strength percentage difference between the two without giving a max pressure number...that might quiet those with the penchant to use the weaker receiver for the wrong purposes...although I doubt ANY information of this sort would disswade some hardheads.

If you think the 7mm has good BC's, you might check out the 6.5mm.  I think that caliber hits that magic optimum point between BC and SD, velocity and bullet weight, penetration and killing power.

In any event the 280/7mm Rem Express, aka 7mm-06, has been around as long as the '06 has almost, and in one form was a competitor prior to the 06 being accepted by the military.  The wildcatters knew a good thing when they saw it, even though it took a long time and was thoroughly mucked up by the bean counters as a commercial round.

Luck

[frgerald]

Hey NFG,

Re: the ballistics quoted:

They BOTH will do one large as far as targets or game is concerned, but the 280 will have a bunch less drop tho'...the 280 at ~2800fs with Sierra 175 MK Match, BC 0.608, has ~307" drop at 1000, the 7mm-08 at ~2600fs with the same bullet at 2600fs has ~363" drop(roughly 5 feet). 

I believe 307" is more like 25.5' while 363" is 30' drop - rather than 5 '.   

[NFG]

"but the 280 will have a bunch less drop, tho'."

I was comparing the DIFFERENCE in drop between the two...which is still ~(approx) 5 feet(56 inches).  No nitpicking fa'chrisake...none of the values or information is cast in stone or EXACT...there are way to many variables.

The difference between the 7mm-08 and the 280 is about(APPROXIMATELY) the same as the difference between the 280 and the 7mm RM...ROUGHLY 16 TO 19 percent...depending on the case brand, actual chamber size...etc...and the same information I presented applies in a linear fashion approximately...i.e., the 7mmRM with the same bullet at ~3000fs will have 262" total drop or ~45" less than the 280 at 2800fs.

As you can see the drop isn't precisely linear, or it could be if you had more than 3 data points to plot.  Look at it as comparing one specific bullet at 3 different velocities, not 3 different cases shooting the same bullet at 3 different velocities.

But the real data comes from actual shooting at various altitudes, temps, humidities etc...drop programs are just rough estimates to start with.

Luck

[tacklebury]

Actually, equipment wise, where I work it's a LOT behind the times.  Most of the product we make is sheet metal based and pretty straight forward.  They don't even purchase the detailed structural analysis package for pro-e or any of the special packages actually.  We do a lot of try and see for new products.  lol  I'm actually one of two that actually have engineering degrees, as most of the others are OJT engineering personnel.  I've been slowly bringing more modern concepts to the operation, but it's slow going.  Trying to get change in some small companies can be tough.  lol

I did look at some of the other info on the 6.5 etc, but I really like 7mm's.  I like the fact that it's available as a std. handy caliber also.  Maybe someday, I'll play with the more exotic chamberings, but for now, I am keeping simple.  Right now I can reload for all my guns with 3 sets of dies and 2 powders, although I do throw in a 3rd occasionally.  Only time will tell though, but if I buy the .45 auto I'm looking at and this, it'll be my last gun purchase for a while, if I don't want all out WAR at home.  hehe

[NFG]

That is always the problem...You're not working in Utah by any chance?.  I worked for a mining equipment producer in S.L.C. 30 years ago that was so far behind times I thought I had somehow been transported back to the 40's. 

Made a lot of money on suggestions and finally got them to buy me a nice wire-feed welder.  They were using strings hanging from the ceiling to center the big horizontal boring machines, cutting and boring 4-8" solid steel rounds for pin boss's instead of using formed and sized "pipes", and NO Jigs of any kind to position the various pieces for welding...just a painted design on the floor.  The waste was beyond imagination, but the scrappers were fat and happy.

Don't get too snug in you position...in this day and age with all the competition and big ones eating little ones, a company that doesn't stay ahead is falling behind...BP oil gobbled up that company and everyone lost their pensions AND their jobs.  I moved on a month before when I saw what was happening...NO one believed me when I told them what was happening.  It was literally here today, gone tomorrow.  The crew I worked with came to work on Tuesday, and Wednesday morning the doors were locked...they were locked right after the second shift went home at midnight...NO one except a few main exec's knew what was going on.

Anyway, there are plenty of calibers available.  Everyone finds the one's that suits them the best.

Luck

[mechanic]

I'm not a wildcatter, nor do I like to push the envelope.  Just never saw the need when there is always a bigger caliber if needed.  I do however have a 280 Handi that I happened upon reasonably.  I almost didn't buy it, but I like that long barrel.

I can honestly say that I had the best "out of the box" accuracy with this of any Handi I have bought, (several now), without any adjustment or tweaking.  I have shot to 400 yards with it at a steel plate, and while I'm not personally capable of taking deer at that range reliably, the gun is....

I have fired a 7mm-08 in a bolt, and while I like both weapons, I like the 280 best....it's just one of those confidence things I guess, I feel comfortable and confident with this rifle.

Inside 300 yds this year, any deer I aim at had better have his prayers said.....

[tacklebury]

Thanks for your feedback.

[NFG]

I guess "wildcatting" means different things to different people.  Many, if not most, of todays "standards " were developed by wildcatters...without those people we wouldn't have the 22-250, 243, 260 and 264 WM, 7mm-08, 25-06, 280, 338-06 and WM, 35 Whelan, 40 cals, etc., and ALL those based on the 404 Jeffery case like the WSM's and RUM's.  Back in those days there wasn't all that many "larger calibers"  to pick from either, other than maybe the 375 H&H.  The larger cals were very high dollar custom shooters.  Nowdays you can pick up a 338, 375, 444, 416 and even 50 cal shooters for a song.

Pushing the envelope has different meanings also.  I don't think of it as "going where no man's gone before", more like taking a case and doing a caliber that hasn't been done before, or has been done but it isn't all that popular.  Most of the cases up to the belted mags have been "wildcatted" up and down as far as they can be taken.  Now the wildcatters are going after the over 50 cal and using the old English cases sometimes removing the rim and adding a belt for feeding and headspacing, 50 BMG and shotgun cases or some of the large military cases.  Wildcatting is still alive and well and producing large calibers and larger bullets at pressures the Handi can handle...that may be pushing some envelope but it isn't pushing the pressure envelope...too far at least.   

Luck



 

[moorepower]

At 500 yards, it is not the drop that will get you, or make you miss. Drop is easy to compensate for with a laser and some range time. Wind on the other hand will make alot of folks look like a fool. I don't care to get into the ethics of shooting an animal over 1/4 mile away, because you did not state that you were shooting at animals that far away. To me it more a matter of what you are shooting at as to which one to get. For whitetail deer, the 7/08 will kill any out to as far as most would consider ethical. For elk the 280 would be a better choice. If you are actually looking at a bolt gun, I would up to the 7mm mag for the reasons that NFG stated. I have the pleasure of having a relative / friend that works for one of the big 4 bullet makers and has worked in the ballistics lab over 20 years. I have had many discussions with him about some of the velocities that some are getting with the 280's and he suggested that they are probably pushing 75-80kpsi to achieve that kind of velocity with the powders they are using. FYI Quickload can be WAY off. Hodgon for 1 lists the psi for the load data, and I know when I call him, he tells me the psi in the test barrel. I know it is fun to punch paper at 600 yds, but speed and a high b.c. bullet are not the only things needed to do it. Myself, I would prefer the 7/08, but that is because I already own a 7mm mag, not because I think there is anything wrong with the 280!

[NFG]

You're absolutely right...drop can be calculated three ways from Sunday with several different software programs that use different "G" functions...it's simple physics again, although when you factor in the variations in humidity, barometric pressure, sun angle, earth spin etc, drop has it's own mind...but the wind...the wind is the Mephistopholes's toy to make you suffer.  It wiggles and worms, fishtails and backs and lies at every opportunity.

Not only the wind can play tricks, but the velocity is constantly reducing, which means the time of flight is constantly increasing changing the wind and drop parameters in a variable manor from shot to shot.

Trying to eliminate or reduce all those parameters is one reason long rangers try for the highest BC bullet, which means the heaviest per caliber(usually) at the highest velocity they can get.

It is relatively easy to learn to shoot out to 400 yds with a high BC, high velocity rifle...but after that things get a little messy if the wind gets over much more than a puff on the cheek.

One reason I go to increasingly larger calibers when the ranges get longer and longer, if I can predict what the range will be prior to the hunt.

With the right equipment, set up on a bench overlooking a valley and plenty of experience doping the wind plus a couple extra pairs of eyes and a 1000 yard shot is very makeable even on sage rats, but even with my years of shooting I won't take shots much over 300 yds unless the animal is stock still and I have a solid rest to shoot from...too many things can go wrong.

Luck