Author Topic: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns  (Read 3053 times)

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Offline mrussel

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Re: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns
« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2010, 05:20:24 PM »
The pen is certainly mightier than the sword ... seems like a couple folks here are okay with the government using a cut & dry child protective services case as an opportunity to take a political jab at Oath Keepers and gun owners. A few more high profile cases and OK will be synonymous with Tim McVeigh. The fact is OK is not a militia. The fact is Irish legally purchased a handgun, rifle and taser ... there are no reported illegal weapons charges against him. So it is not unlawful for him to do so despite general statements to his failure to show for anger management, and her 2 prior cases.

The newsworthy item here is the irresponsible logic of DSS in bringing up irrelevant issues. The fact that a child was protected doesn't justify their politicization of the issue.

 This was not about the oathkeepers. You can say that it was innapropriate for them to use his membership in a political organization that way and they they were just trying to be inflammatory,but this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the federal government and the its not really about the Oathkeepers. They are only involved becuase they were named in an effort to be inflammatory.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2010, 06:21:03 PM »
Yes, and who brought up his affiliation with OK? Who alluded to his lawful firearms possession? The government agency. Why? And why aren't you troubled by a public servant or agency politicizing an otherwise mundane event?
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Offline mrussel

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Re: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2010, 07:49:01 PM »
Yes, and who brought up his affiliation with OK? Who alluded to his lawful firearms possession? The government agency. Why? And why aren't you troubled by a public servant or agency politicizing an otherwise mundane event?

 Im more annoyed by it than troubled. What also annoys me is people who cant keep the federal state and local government agencies separate and think they are all part of some massive conspiratorial "federal government" that operates with a singular purpose and direction. Anyone who has ever dealt with the federal government on any level knows how fractured it is and how one agency cant agree to cooperate with another even when required to perform their missions much less if it were to actually do things blatantly illegal that would get them fired from otherwise very stable jobs.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2010, 06:20:00 AM »
I don't know where I got the idea that home land security was a federal agency!
                         Beerbelly ::)

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2010, 07:32:32 AM »
I don't know where I got the idea that home land security was a federal agency!
                         Beerbelly ::)

Probably from the many people who seem to be getting acronyms confused and throwing around agencies willy-nilly.

From all the official sources, I see absolutely no mention of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) being involved with this at all.  Some commenters, posters on various forums, etc, seem to be mentioning them, but not the sources. 

I think the confusion is sneaking in about the acronyms.  Many of the articles mention DHHS being involved.  DHHS is the Department of Health and Human Services, not Homeland Security.  Though there is a Federal level DHHS, most states have a state level DHHS too.  The state branch seems to be what was involved in this case.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2010, 03:13:15 PM »
 That makes a lot of sense. Also,it should be noted that the federal DHHS agency does not take children from dangerous homes. They write reports,do research and give out grant money. They also publish guidelines on ethical standards in human research . Additionally they administer programs that provide food aid to the elderly as well as dozens of other things that have nothing to do with the case at hand. Heres a link. http://www.hhs.gov/about/whatwedo.html

 Now Im certain many small government libertarian types think that they there is no need for them to exist,but that's a debate for another time. They dont take peoples children.

 As for DHS,they dont take children away from dangerous situations. In fact,local police usually dont even do that. When there is a potential problem,they call social services,CPS or the local or state department of health and human services and let them deal with it. In these cases,the police dont tell the social workers what to do,its the other way around. Social workers take the kids,and the police are there just to make sure that no one gets in the way. The social worker shows up with a couple of officers and tells the parents that the children are coming with them and that the police will arrest them if they interfere. The social workers run the show. The police are law enforcement officers. They enforce the law and arrest people. In fact,I dont think they even have the authority to take kids. They need the appropriate agency to come out and do that ,and yes,that agency will probably place a heavy emphasis on the officers word. Still,that job and the decision whether to do it rests with the local child welfare agency. If "the police took your kids" chances are what really happened was that the police ARRESTED you,and then called the local child welfare agency to come get the kids becuase they cant just leave them in an empty house after arresting the parents. Yes an officer COULD lie to get your children taken away,but then again,so could I. I could tell them that I saw something. That sucks if it happens to you,but honestly,if you were that social worker and you had a believable witness that alleged child abuse,what would you do? Do you have a better way to protect children from abusers that do their abuse behind closed doors and threaten children to make them keep their mouth shut. What if I'm not lying. What if the abused child confided in her friend and her friend told me what happened. (the social worker would speak to my child and if it seemed legit,they could take action) Do you really think that a social worker should come to a parents door,and say "Your neighbors child said that you had been touching your daughter inappropriately and said you would kill her and her mother if she told anyone. Have you been doing that? No you say? OK,then we will go away and assume that your daughter or your neighbors daughter is lying and trust that you will not do anything illegal to her for telling people that you molested her. Have a nice day sir! If anyone have a better idea to protect the children that ARE being abused in that way than taking them out of that situation,speak up.


I would like to add that in my opinion Department of Homeland Security is about the most Fascist name you could come up with for an agency. Personally,I dont think we needed it,we just needed a few reforms with what we had before. I imagine the politicians sitting around saying "After 9-11 we need a domestic security agency. We need to decide what to call this new domestic security agency. There are a lot possibilities,and in the tradition of other federal agencies we should choose a three letter acronym that easy to remember so that people will be able to instantly know we are talking about the new domestic security agency when we use it. The name for the new domestic security agency should be something that doesn't evoke an image of a dictatorial secret police organization. We want people to understand that this domestic security agency is there to protect them,not to spy on them. How about Department Of Homeland Security! Seriously though a traditionally American name would have been something like DSA,the Domestic Security Agency. Thats how we have historically named these agencies,instead of throwing around terms like "Motherland,Fatherland,Homeland,etc. It just seems to me that too many dictators throw those terms around. Its like if we decided to have a sweeping immigration reform measure that would deal with the problem in a comprehensive and complete way and called it the FSIA "Final Solution for Immigration Act". I dont really care HOW fair,balanced and effective it really is. Its a terrible name. Its one of those "What the hell were you thinking" sort of things.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Fed Gov Seizes New Born Child of '"Oath Keeper" Who Owns Guns
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2010, 08:59:05 PM »
mrussel...

..you still seem to be talking about/justifing removing children from existing family home situations. But this is not the case here...it is a case of removing a newborn from it's mother in a hospital...a single mother not even married to Mr. Irish. Any logical person would see the bizarre, cruel, and rash nature of this action...I can think of at least a half a dozen remedies for this situation, so paid CPS persons should be able to as well. Obiviously, this public action was meant to provoke the Mr. Irish character in this operation. 

Further, the clearing house for 'militia', subversive, or terrorist activities is DHS (who are under advisement by SPLC, etc). His membership in OKeepers is mentioned in the Affidavit to give a negative connotation to his character and at the same time to besmirch OK...an affidavit which has much blacked out info as far as we're concerned!! Is New Hampshire CPS qualified to make these assesments and how did this info make it into an affidavit in the first place? Where did this come from anyway? Did CPS remove the other 2 children from Mr. Irish's presence or just the newborn still in the Hospital?

As I said the mother of this newborn should seek council immediately to wring this out in public and lay faults where they belong.


..TM7
.

 You still have failed to state how in any way,Homeland Security is involved in this. You only statement is "How else could they have known about his OK affiliation",but there are plenty of ways. Maybe his neighbor called him. Maybe the police who kept responding to the domestic disturbances knew?

 As for the reason for the mention of the OK in the affidavit,your correct on the first count,and just making things up on the second. I agree that it was inappropriate to mention his affiliation with a far right political group,which is protected by the first amendment simply to be inflammatory. I disagree that this was somehow ABOUT the Oath Keepers and somehow an attempt to smear THEM. Your just making that up out of nowhere. Its circular reasoning. DHS must have been involved becuase they mentioned the Oath Keepers. The whole thing MUST have been about the Oath Keepers becuase DHS was involved.

 It should be mentioned however that it MIGHT be proper to mention political organizations that are protected by the first amendment in some cases. What if he was a member of NAMBLA. They seek to make child molestation legal which is an offensive,yet distinctly political goal. I think that IF,and only IF it is directly relevant to the case,mention of political organizations might be reasonably. In this case though,I fail to see the relevance.