Neck tension

[Hooker]

I ran off a batch of bullets for my 308 the other night .When I seated the bullets a few of them pushed back out of the case mouth about .030. I thought maybe I didn't put enough crush on them with the neck sizing die so I redone them.
Some of them still pushed back out so I clean the die thinking that the collet was dirty. Nope the die was almost spotless.
Reassemble and adjusted it same thing. This die set has been used very little , it's a Lee die set. the powder charge is slightly compressed but not max 44grs of varget the cases are federals once fired and the bullets are Nosler 165gr Bt BTs.
I've used this same load a lot with no crimp up until now I've had no problems. Double checked the powder charges they are right on the money. I've got be over looking something, but what?
Any suggestions?

Pat
  

[gray-wolf]

Did you mean to say .030 -- what you wrote is .300 (.30 )  Just a typo I guess.
Anyway I have seen some of my 270 Win. back out after loading, pulled the bullets and gave the case a little shake to settle the powder a little and re-seated the bullets.
  Air in the case ?? bullet seated to deep in a case with to much powder ?? 
I would like to hear the technical answer for this one.
  A suggestion I followed was to use a drop tube, it will settle the powder a little better and what you thought was a full case is not so full anymore.

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

I've used this same load a lot with no crimp up until now I've had no problems.

Did the previous loads include the Federal brass?



Bill

[chutesnreloads]

I've noticed with Lee collet neck sizers the neck tension is less than the regular full length die.Never had bullets back out though but never with compressed loads either.

[cwlongshot]

I could easily make some derogatory LEE die comments.... But I will keep quiet.  (No I do not like LEE products)

Check your expander ball diameters. You can chuck them up in a drill or drill press and sand them smaller. I'm not sure LEE offers different diameters. But RCBS/REDDING will sell you different diameter expander balls.

CW

[sr sawyer]

CW probably nailed it.  The expander ball should be at least  .002 smaller than bullet diameter because if not you will not be achieving good neck tension.  Also be sure to clean all lubricant from the case mouth.

Ken

[DANNY-L]

This happened to me a couple years ago and come to find out I had the wrong expander ball on,confusing but after I figured it out everything was right. I use RCBS and at the time I didnt know they came with 2 sizes.

[fastchicken]

If he were using a die with an expander ball you might be right, but I don't think the collet neck sizing dies have an expander ball. And not to start an argument, but Lee sent me smaller expanders for FREE. But RCBS/REDDING will sell you different diameter expander balls.

[Hooker]

Yes all my previous loads were Federal brass. I use Federals factory Gold Medal Match ammo for base line accuracy when developing loads or making changes to my 308 rifles, so I have a lot of Federal brass.
I'll have to mic the expander and see what it dia. it is.
CW this is my first set of Lee dies I have always used RCBS on every thing but my old 308 dies were getting a little aged so I sold them in a garage sale and bought the Lees. What I don't like on the Lee set is the O-rings, aluminum parts and there is no way to lock the setting down solid.

Pat

[Catfish]

To make the Lee collet dies work you must set them to cam over with a fair amount of resistance. If they are not going over top with a fair amount of resistance your not sizeing them down enough. I have used them and just plain don`t like them, but if you turn them in alittle you should be able to make them work.

[wncchester]

The  Lee collet neck sizer die is made to produce the least amount of cold working possible while still obtaining a good neck "tension".   It really helps extend case life and produces very straight necks too.  Unlike common neck sizers, it's NOT a simplistic "push the case in, pull the case out" thing; it has a moving part so there is a learning curve but it's well worth the effort to gain the advantages of its potential. 

Press cam-over or not isn't the issue, enough pressure on the collet to conform the necks firmly to the mandrel IS.  But, DO NOT greatly exceed 20# of lever pressure or you may well push out the die's top cap.  It's a safety part, made of soft aluminum with fine threads so it will strip free to relieve excessive ram pressure rather than allowing us to damage either the press or die  body.  (Some people DO break the top straps on presses like the Rock Chucker so the concern is real!)

It's a fact of life that compressed loads push back and Federal cases have a bit softer brass than others so it's bullet holding grip is a bit less than it could be.  Combine both of those factors with perhaps too little sizing effort and the bullet 30 thou of "push up" you are getting is easily possible.

[McDerry]

Your using the regular collet die set aren't you?

I had a similiar problem with some .303 rounds and the collet die.

The bullet seater in the collet die set has no crimping function in it, its just a seater allowing you to run it right down to the shell holder to get a more precise length from round to round.  Without the crimp the bullet will move to equalize the pressure on the compressed load.  Time to order a seater/crimper or reduce the charge slightly.  Could also take advantage of the dead length seater and move the bullet closer to the lands so as to no longer have a compressed load.


The main advantage is case life.  I only own 20 pieces of .220 swift brass, I'm working on my fourth pound of powder through them.  Have only had to trim them twice.

[Hooker]

I use bullets without a crimp groove so seating die with a crimp is no use to me.
Still checking things

Pat

[cwlongshot]

I do have a couple of these die sets. I haven't used them in some time, so last night I dug out a couple sets and took them apart.

They do not have a expander "ball" but rather a shaft that determines finished diameter. So its a same-same kinda thing. Too large a diameter = Lo neck tension.  BUT, I also remember loading with them, and remember reading for better bullet re-tension, seat once, then rotate the case 180 degrees and seat a second time.

CW

[necchi]

I use bullets without a crimp groove so seating die with a crimp is no use to me.

Um, the existance of a crimp groove or not on a bullet has nothing to do with the use of a crimp. You can choose to crimp (or not) on any bullet.
You can also choose how much crimp you want or need to apply.

 Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but the crimp groove on some/most that have them is conveniantly placed so that IF crimped AT the groove it would be SAMMI OAL for that bullet.
 Nothing is carved in stone that a crimped bullet Has To Be crimped at the groove if the loader chooses to streach his seating.

[Hooker]

Crimping a bullet without a crimp grove will squeeze the case down into the bullet. This will deform the bullet and cause accuracy problems.

Pat

[fastchicken]

This will deform the bullet and cause accuracy problems

. And a cannelure is not a deformation of the bullet? How is that groove pressed into the jacket without deforming it?
   I have some old factory Federal '06 rounds loaded with 165gr Sierra Gamekings that have a crimp groove, but it's a tapered groove with no serrations like what a typical cannelure looks like and they shoot great. If I use a Lee factory crimp die on my handloaded Gamekings, with no crimp groove, the bullets end up looking darn close to those old factory rounds. I don't crimp for my '06, but just did it to see what would happen crimping without a groove. Not a noticeable difference in accuracy either.

[Hooker]

The groove is made into the bullet by a controlled process.
Crushing bullet half in a brass case and the rest of the bullet basically unsupported will deform it.
Push the metal in at one spot it's going to upset it some where else no way around it.
My loads are producing some very small groups in past experiments crimping has enlarged my groups.

Pat

[necchi]

My loads are producing some very small groups in past experiments crimping has enlarged my groups.

Exactly, but that may not be due to bullet deformation. Crimping increases pressure at ignition, forcing the powder to burn just a bit differently.
I also find better accuracy with no crimp, but a loader can crimp from just a touch, to a full roll crimp. If your stuck believing that all dies must be set against the shell holder, and all moves must be a "cam over" of the press your limiting what you can do when you load, 

Anyways, this is important,,

CW this is my first set of Lee dies I have always used RCBS on every thing but my old 308 dies were getting a little aged so I sold them in a garage sale and bought the Lees. What I don't like on the Lee set is the O-rings, aluminum parts and there is no way to lock the setting down solid.

That's interesting because I bought Lee dies for my 308 just to try'm, all my others are RCBS, I've struggled with the Lees too,  and just got some RCBS in 308 and now I'm happy.
 If your trouble just started with the Lees then it's the change in the button and or the entire neck sizing of the die thats causing the trouble. As stated by others, try turning the button down a bit and hopefully you get what you need.

Now that I've been able to "prove" my RCBS dies I'll be putting the Lees up for sale or trade.