Real threat? The Muslims or Chinese, Chinese sub surfaces close to US carrier

[guzzijohn]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html

The Chinese are probably much more of a "Clear and Present Danger" to us in the long run than the radical Muslims ever hope to be. Any connection with the vapor trail the other day?
GuzziJohn

[Dixie Dude]

I too agree about the Chinese.  We have a trade deficit, half is oil, the other half is mostly Chinese.  Half our money to Arab nations, the other half to Chinese, both potential enemies.  

1)  We can solve the first one within 5 to 10 years.  If we can mandate fuel standards, we can mandate so many vehicles be diesel.  27 gallons of diesel per barrel of crude vs 20 gasoline.  Duh, less imports.  Also diesel gets higher mileage, thus even more imports.  Have fleets convert to natural gas, cuts 40% of imports.  So between the two in the next 5-10 we eliminate imported oil.  This creates more jobs here and money stays home, thus helping here even more.  

2)  Slap a tarriff on Chinese good if they don't let their money float.  If they let it float like ours, half our trade deficit with them would be eliminated in less than 2 months.  If not make up the difference in tarriffs.  

3)  Give coal and oil companies tax incentives to manufacture synthetic diesel from our abundant coal supply.  

4)  Get nuclear power on the fast track and build some government owned breeder reactors to recycle the spent fuel thus eliminating about 90% of the nuclear waste.  Government owned would be controled by the military so the spent fuel could be accounted for and not fall into any potential enemies hands.  France has started using breeders since 80% of their power is nuclear. 

5)  Spent nuclear fuel could be stored in deep abandoned coal mines or in desert mountains out west.  

[powderman]

China has been too quiet for too long, yes, they are a threat. The godless ones have infected the entire world with their fast growing cancer, they are an immediate threat with their goals widely known and supported by pantywetters and sympathizers all over America. POWDERMAN. 

[BBF]

Another U-Boat menace.
 Just shows you that you do not need nuke reactors to power a Sub.
Hopefully there will be navy types on the carpet for that cluster****

[Dixie Dude]

China about 2-3 years ago purchased two large diesel missle carrying subs from Russia.  (Obsolete by Russian and American term) but long range subs.  Russia also sold two to India, possibly as a counter to China.  Russia also sold them one each of their older aircraft carriers.  These only carry about 20 or so planes, small by our standards.  Neither China or India need to project power.  No enemies except each other.  China claims part of Indias northern border.  China also claims part of Russias border.  China has a communist one party rule.  India is democratic with multiple parties.  I trust India far more than China.  India has always had an open society handed down by British rule.  India adapated socialism after their independence.  They have become more capitalist in the last 10-15 years and have prospered.  China with one party rule is like Nazi Germany now.  Capitalist economy but one party rule.  This is what someone from Taiwan said.  Taiwan would join back to China if they adapted multi political parties.  

[guzzijohn]

What I hope may have happened is that the sub was tracked and identified and it knew it was by a ping or whatever but decided to surface for some nose thumbing anyway. It is my understanding that when running on batteries a diesel sub is much quieter than a nuclear sub. Maybe they just took an educated guess where the US fleet was going, waited motionless and then surfaced when the fleet was going over them.

Powderman, do you really think that Muslims are more of a threat to overall national security than the Chinese? You must know something about their military and organizational abilities that the rest of us don't to feel that they are a more serious threat. The one big thing that China has in their favor is patience. They do not worry much about immediate results but what can be accomplished in the long run.
GuzziJohn

[Dixie Dude]

Both potential enemies are long term.  Chinese by their long continuous history unless they eventually adapt a multi-party government.  Muslims by their religion, willing to die for it.  China like Russia, would probably be reluctant to get in a nuclear exchange.  Muslims if they get a power hungry dictator like in Iran, Lybia, or Iraq are mostly terroists.  If a dictator over a Muslim country gets nuclear power coupled with their religion, might go postal and use nukes. 

[streak]

I question if we are getting the complete story on this Chinese sub. The fleet in operation has combat control rooms on most of the ships guarding the carrier. These combat control rooms had large screens which depicted a large area of the globe with various foreign military vessels showing up on this screen where they are tracked. I would be suprised if the Navy did not already know the location of this sub. Although the media states that the Navy was suprised by the appearance of this Chinese sub. Anyway stay tuned for the rest of the story!

[powderman]

DIXIE DUDE, I agree Sir.
guzzi, your words, not mine. POWDERMAN. 

[Pat/Rick]

Dixie Dude, well said sir. China? An enemy? Sun Tzu ( The Art of War) said; "The mightiest warrior never has to pick up a sword".

Remember also that the Japanese sold China the (quiet)bearing technology for their submarines in the late 70's or 80's.  When my brother was a submariner he would tell me that they would "dog" Russian boats until they surfaced so they could photograph (and embarass)them. I believe that China succeeded in embarassing the USA when this happened, "in you face lound eye".

If a nation decides to use nukes they would get "more bang for the buck" by using them as EMP weapons. An advanced society like china may go that way, hard to say about a muslim nation.

[no guns here]

You're only 3 years late on this...


NGH

[MGMorden]

China is a tough one.  What they have is people.  A LOT of them.  In an infantry war, there would be little contest.  We lose, plain and simple.  What we do (currently) have over them is technology.  We have many more planes, ships, subs, etc that do a lot to makeup for sheer numbers of available soldiers. 

There are a few factors to consider though:

1) China, FOR THE MOST PART, has not really been that interested in expansion.  They have for much of history been INCREDIBLY isolationist in nature.  They're more about holding onto their land than getting additional land.  The big (*) next to that is that they've also been very adamant about claiming (or reclaiming) land that they consider to be part of China.  This currently includes Taiwan, a current US protectorate and ally.

2) China is heavily entangled with the US economically.  We own them a TON of money, and if we were annihilated those debts would never get payed.  If the US were gone tommorow, it would have devastating consequences on the Chinese economy. 

3) When any two large nations like that go to war, it's going to be devastating for both sides, regardless of which side wins.  That's part of what kept the US and the USSR away from war for so long: the sad truth is a war would have spelt the end of both of us, regardless of who ended up surrendering to who.

With that in mind, with the slight wildcard being Taiwan, I just don't see us having military differences with China (outside of your standard cold war style escalation).  It'll moreso be a matter of economic competition, and in that arena, China is beating us silly, as are others.  Our manufacturing jobs are going to China whilst our white-collar jobs are going to India.   There's a lot of talk about us transitioning to a "service based economy", but that will never work - other countries will not keep sending us goods for us to sit around "providing services" to one another all day.  Without SOME manufacturing sector we'll just keep sinking lower.  Sad reality is that that sink won't stop for a LONG time.  Chinese/Indian standard of living goes up, ours goes down.  Our population density is much lower, so we have a natural advantage now, but the sheer economics of it won't settle out until the two sides come close to balancing.  IE, until Chinese and American labor becomes similar in price. 

We're in for a rough ride.

[Dixie Dude]

The only major exports we have is food and raw materials.  I think one way to get back and keep some industry here is for the feds, state, and local government to only buy American made goods.  We can contact American owned companys and give them 3-5 years to get the factories going.  From uniforms, shoes, guns, vehicles, etc.  Governmental goods account for about 20% of the economy.  That would at least keep industry here to supply our military with uniforms, boots, weapons, etc.  But fleet vehicles, copy machines, computers, etc, that they purchase would help our people get jobs.  If a foreign owned company wants to sell to our governments, they would have to build a factory here to make the stuff. 

We also need to develop synthetic fuels, algae fuels, and natural gas to replace imported oil. 

Once we do the above it makes us more powerful to pressure China to float their currency. 

[Hooker]

Any enemy of liberty should not be taken lightly.
That includes many of our own countrymen whom by the way are our biggest threat.

Pat

[powderman]

Any enemy of liberty should not be taken lightly.
That includes many of our own countrymen whom by the way are our biggest threat.

Pat

PAT. Agreed Sir. POWDERMAN.