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Offline williamlayton

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THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« on: October 13, 2010, 02:31:44 PM »
What can we do to liven up the postings here?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline cbourbeau32

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 05:18:04 PM »
I agree. I enjoy reading the posts here. Lots of wisdom and real life experience.
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 05:38:22 AM »
Need something to disagree about....

Let's see....ok...the 45acp is no good for personal defense....or the 9mm lacks power....or, or...the 357magnum is wimpy, or over powered, or shoots through engine blocks.....or that smth is better than colt or taurus....or...go to defcon 6...say that remington 1911s are garbage like all remingtons so that Swampy will get the ball rolling   :D(BTW...Swampy's right and no offense meant to him...Remmis' are worth the money IMHO)!!!


 
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Offline Scibaer

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 05:44:18 AM »
how about using hand loaded ammo in your carry gun, or when you ( god forbid ) have to 'stop the threat' , instead of factory ammunition ?

Offline jls

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 08:40:03 AM »
Ive never posted on this forum before but here is a real life situation that occured here in co. a number of years ago. I'll keep this as brief as I can. A family member went to a neighbors house for coffee one morning. This neighbor was going through very bad divource and had a restraining order against her husband. husband showed up about 10 am and was beating on the front door wanting in. The wife told him to leave and she was calling the police. husband broke through the picture glass window next to the fireplace and was standing on a couch with a knife in one hand and a hammer in the other screaming that he was going to kill her. family member pulled a chiefs special from her purse and warned him to leave. husband stepped off couch and rushed the women. family member fired one shot ( 158gr lead rnd nose)  hit him square in the pump station and exited the back. hubby dropped right there. slug hit front of mantle and bounced off at right angle through garage door. police arrived and arrested family member for murder. After all the evidence and testimony was presented to the D.A he dropped all charges but not before we had encurred considerable attorney fees and the acompanning stress and intimidation from the PD. This was a small bedroom community and their first homicide. I was privy to some of the autopsy photos and while a simular situation may yield different results , I have no doubt as to the effectivness of the 38 spl. as long as it's put in the right place. The aftermath of all this was countless hrs. of counseling/therapy, crying, remorse, nightmares etc. But the alterative to all this would have been much worse had she not been armed. Toxicolgy results showed hubby was loaded to the gills with booze and meth. The fact he went down with one shot is interesting. There it is in short form. I could fill pages with details.
Deceased due to a 3rd stroke on Dec. 12, 2011.

RIP John.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 08:45:30 AM »
Shame she went thru. all that but every class I have taken tells you it is murder and you most likely will be arrested . The last class said it runs about 40 thousand avg. to get free if it was a clean shooting.
 Makes one think they can't afford to protect themselves .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline jimster

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 11:57:44 AM »
Quote
Shame she went thru. all that but every class I have taken tells you it is murder and you most likely will be arrested . The last class said it runs about 40 thousand avg. to get free if it was a clean shooting.
 Makes one think they can't afford to protect themselves .

All depends on the state/laws, then it depends on the prosecutor in your area if he is going to abide by them.  Lucky for the people in this area, none of the shootings that happend like this even went to court.  I live in a good spot now concerning self defense, someday I'm going to move and when I do I best read up on where it is I'm going.  Been keeping track of the last several shootings around this area in and out of the home, some were much more questionable than this...and there was no court for the defenders at all, prosecutor went by the state law exactly as it's layed out. We also have the castle law here as well, which really helps the the cost. Once the county/state says self defense and walks away, no civil action can take place by the families of the perps either.

The classes they give here do not tell you it's murder, but they do advise you to keep your trap shut and ask for a lawyer when cops show up. The last shooting I read about was only a few miles down the road from here, the guy was not arrested, he had to kill someone who broke into his place of business, the man that broke in was unarmed as far as a gun, but when the cops got there they found he had a brick in a cloth sack, the owner did not know that until the cops got there. He shot because the perp approached him rather fast, he saw no weapon at the time. Case was closed real fast.

All boils down to the laws, and one person (prosecutor) who decides if he is going to give you a hard time or not.







Offline williamlayton

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 01:54:23 PM »
Don't say a word to the police----shut-up-----Be silent----You don't have to answer any questions or make ANY statements----Don't try to tell your side of it---They will use any words against you------What about sut up is not understandable.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline jls

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 06:55:30 PM »
Yea, it was quite the ordeal. The PD did'nt want to return her weapon, took bout 6 months and a threat of a lawsuit to get it back. We were lucky in the fact we hada family aqaintance that sat as a cnty judge before going back to private practice so we did'nt take it in the shorts too bad. His exact words were " keepa you mouth shut". The biggest issue I had was the over zealots at the PD. It was guilty until proven innocecent. They were justing looking for a conviction , right or wrong to put in their books. never happened. She did tell the DA that she would'nt wish her experience on anyone but given the same situation again, would'nt do anything different. You have to be alive to be tried by your peers. If you die, the bad guy wins! 
Deceased due to a 3rd stroke on Dec. 12, 2011.

RIP John.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 02:33:55 AM »
For clarification---this was in Colorado?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline jls

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 05:41:23 AM »
Yep, back when the make my day law was being challanged/ tested in the courts. no castle law  here yet.
Deceased due to a 3rd stroke on Dec. 12, 2011.

RIP John.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2010, 04:12:53 PM »
Although I've been accused here of not having a L/E career, I DID, and I can tell you Williamlayton is correct.  Nothing you can say to police will be of benefit at trial, unless it's a spontaneous remark about fear.  If you were not afraid for your life (or someone else's), you probably shouldn't have fired.  Other than that, most everything you say is evidence not in your favor.  SHUT UP!  No harm can come to you from not talking, even if you are totally in the right.  Police arrive on any scene to: firstly, protect life, and secondly, enforce the law.  They WILL do both.  That said, if and when you have to shoot someone, you can't waste seconds thinking about trial.  That'll get you dead.  But in the back of your brain, remember that when someone is hurt or dies from the direct result of your action, the police will be interested.  They don't come to your house or to the scene to make friends.  They come to do their job. 

That said, I don't remember or know of a single case wherein a person legally defending their life, suffered a conviction, UNLESS, they somehow promoted the altercation.  Example:  If you instigate an argument and it ends in a shootout, you're defense is weakened.  Some few states say you don't have to run away from an altercation; that you can stand your ground.  Most states say if you could have prevented killing by running away, you must.  Each case, of course, will be adjudicated on its own merits.  Let's say a hoodlum greets you on a darkened street with a big knife and tells you to get off HIS street.  You could easily enforce your right to be there.  But, if you shoot him because he brandishes a knife, and you have sufficient distance between you and him that you could run, what would you do?  More importantly, what will the court say you should have done?     I like scenarios.  They were presented to me without end during basic and in-service training.  Some were on the range, where particular circumstances  were shown on screen, and I had to make an instant decision re. deadly force.   The point is , if you ain't a cop, don't shoot unless there's no alternative.   Police have to stand their ground, and stay on dangerous ground until the matter is resolverd.  We don't usually have that luxury.  Don't shoot because you CAN, shoot because you must.   


   

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2010, 03:02:30 AM »
Mike I believe the court looks at it from the point of view - what would any prudent person do under the same circumstances. At least in Va.
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2010, 11:38:24 AM »
That's very true.  What a reasonable person would do under the circumstances. 

Offline canon6

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2010, 04:24:25 PM »
" Officer,Deputy (what ever)  I will be happy to talk to you and give a statement after I have had a chance to consult with my attorney"   this is from a 20+years  LEO, 10 plus years as a Plantiff 's investigator.Consider the State's job is to investigate, arrest and try offenders. And in their world you are one.   Doug
a armed man is his own master

Offline bubbinator

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2010, 10:14:32 PM »
Thank God I never in 42+ yrs as a LEO did I have to shoot someone.  4 yrs in SEA was another situation not open for discussion.  My most personal shooting experience is with an Oxford , AL officer, our cousin, who had to shoot a BG after a burglary/chase that ended with the BG drawing a gun.  NOT TOO GOOD!  He got shot, lived to stand trial, and my cousin, a AL PBA Member, has yet to make a staement to anyone but his PBA Atty! He followed the advice above.  THe DA had sufficient info from other sources to prosecute the case.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2010, 02:00:50 AM »
If you don't say anything does not make you the bad guy.
Be proactive, be positive, smile and co-operate, put up with the ride, don't hassel them--they may hassel you, stay alert, stay silent and call for an attorney----may even be one down at the station when you get there--helping someone else----he may have time for you.
The boys have a job to do and they have experience closing out files---don't help them.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Mikey

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2010, 02:08:17 AM »
What would any prudent person do under the circumstances - man with a knife in a darkened alley - shot him twice.  Hey, I'm a old guy, so is Graybeard and many of the others who are members here (hence, gray beards...) and the thought of having to turn around and put our backs to a man with a knife and trying to high tail it out of his neighborhood without getting one in the back is a bunch of bs.  None of us can outrun a hopped up bad guy - I sure as all hay cannot, but with practice I can defend myself.  

Ya know, it's really too bad that in many states you need special licenses or permits for silencers for pistols - they are soooo very community friendly with their noise abatement capabilities.  Think about it - a bad guy with a knife tells you to get off his street - you pull out your silenced pistol and say - I would like to keep this quiet - and hopefully the bad guy agrees and you go on your merry way - if not, deal with it quietly so as not to disturb the neighborhood and call it in from a pay phone so they don't catch up to you through caller id..........................  Hey, at least you are reporting it...................

And william - in my neck of the woods the notion of closing out a file is a bit of a oxymoron - they never close anything out and don't keep files......

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2010, 04:10:53 AM »
What would any prudent person do under the circumstances - man with a knife in a darkened alley - shot him twice.  Hey, I'm a old guy, so is Graybeard and many of the others who are members here (hence, gray beards...) and the thought of having to turn around and put our backs to a man with a knife and trying to high tail it out of his neighborhood without getting one in the back is a bunch of bs.  None of us can outrun a hopped up bad guy - I sure as all hay cannot, but with practice I can defend myself.  

Ya know, it's really too bad that in many states you need special licenses or permits for silencers for pistols - they are soooo very community friendly with their noise abatement capabilities.  Think about it - a bad guy with a knife tells you to get off his street - you pull out your silenced pistol and say - I would like to keep this quiet - and hopefully the bad guy agrees and you go on your merry way - if not, deal with it quietly so as not to disturb the neighborhood and call it in from a pay phone so they don't catch up to you through caller id..........................  Hey, at least you are reporting it...................

And william - in my neck of the woods the notion of closing out a file is a bit of a oxymoron - they never close anything out and don't keep files......
So prudent means turning and running ? Where do you get that idea ? And slincers are good but do nothing for EYE witnesses now do they ? Where do you find a pay phone these days ? at lest one not on camera . Talk about BS when I read the above my BS meter peged
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Offline bubbinator

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2010, 06:19:52 PM »
Another AL case-one of my licensees owns a bar in a central AL county. One night he ejected 2 drunks for harassing a waitress.  They went to their car and got a .22 pistol and returned to the bar.  They shot an exitting patron outside the door in the arm and opened the bar door.  The owner met them at the door with his Sig P226. They fired first striking him in the leg.  He returned fire, killing both DRT with 2 rds. apiece!  He never even had to testify before the Grand Jury!  LE cleared him completely.  As he is a good licensee who doesn't sell liquor to minors, next time I saw him I gave him 200 rds of 9mm ammo so he could improve his marksmanship!

Offline mrussel

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2010, 10:21:06 PM »
Shame she went thru. all that but every class I have taken tells you it is murder and you most likely will be arrested . The last class said it runs about 40 thousand avg. to get free if it was a clean shooting.
 Makes one think they can't afford to protect themselves .

 In most states you CAN shoot someone running at you with a weapon. I dont see how that would be murder.

Offline mrussel

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2010, 10:26:01 PM »
If you don't say anything does not make you the bad guy.
Be proactive, be positive, smile and co-operate, put up with the ride, don't hassel them--they may hassel you, stay alert, stay silent and call for an attorney----may even be one down at the station when you get there--helping someone else----he may have time for you.
The boys have a job to do and they have experience closing out files---don't help them.
Blessings

 But remember,if you dont say anything to the police they will SAY it makes you a bad guy. They will tell you some crazy scenario they made up to make it look like you are a murderer to try to scare you into talking. Dont take the bait.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2010, 09:42:05 AM »
Killing anyone is murder . The question is wheather you were legal to do so.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mrussel

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2010, 09:01:24 PM »
Killing anyone is murder . The question is wheather you were legal to do so.

 Absolutely not. Murder is killing without justification. You may CONSIDER killing anyone murder,but that is not the common meaning of the term. It has a very specific meaning.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2010, 01:26:36 AM »
OK killing anyone on purpose . You got me I didn't think of killing by accident. But killing someone by shooting them in self defense is on purpose and is murder .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2010, 01:27:23 AM »
At least in my state it is
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2010, 07:31:23 AM »
HUMMMMM---I would move.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SLOW
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 02:09:52 AM »
William why ?
Here you can be in the right to do so for self protection . We just call it what it is right or wrong .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !