Author Topic: PAPER PUNCHING AND CALIBER (Read 1778 times)

williamlayton · « **on:** November 16, 2010, 03:46:56 AM »

I have put off---for several years---a .223 project.
I am not a real tactical person and I have a hard time understanding upper and lower lingo and standards.
At the range I belong to, we have about 400 yards of available space for rifles---and that is fine for me as I am really not into sooting a mile and a half--just punching paper.
400 Yards is a little far for rim fire--I think--correct me if I am wrong.
I am 70 and don't want a large recoil rifle.
The 25-06, 6mm are intreguing but ammo is pretty pricey--the .243 is a good-un but barrel life is reported to be short.
.223 seems to be the best option--but that is why I am here and not buying.
What do you guys think--is the first question---we will get into a build after I am satisfied with caliber decisions.
Blessings

mannyrock · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2010, 04:27:33 AM »

If you don't handload, then the .223 is really your only option for paper punching at fairly reasonable ammo prices.

If you do handload, then the 7mm-8 or .243 would be a better choice. (The 7mm-08 creates a bigger hole, and is easier to see through your range glass.)

For what you are doing, forget about barrel life. Any flat shooting caliber, capable of 300 yard target shooting, is going to burn barrels at about the same rate as the .243 or 7mm-08.

Another possible option if you handload is the 6.5 Swede (or better yet the .260 Remington, because you can use .308 Win brass). They have extremely low recoil, and will buck the wind much better than the .223.

You may want to check into the 6.8 spc, but I have zero experience with this so don't really know.

Hope this helps.

Mannyrock

Swampman · « **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2010, 05:45:22 AM »

I'd get a Remington Model 700 SPS in .223

williamlayton · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2010, 06:29:36 AM »

Mannyrock
HUMMMMM. Interesting comment on burning a .223 barrel.
I understand that a 243 barrel life is shorter than 2000 rounds---what about the .223?
Catfish made somewhat the same comment in another thread here.
I am not sure i want to re-invest $800 every 2000 rounds down range.
Blessings

Swampman · « **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2010, 07:18:46 AM »

What kind of barrel cost $800.00?

I stole this from The Shooter's Forum

Bore Life of Centerfire Rifles

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From time to time we have members posting asking if anyone can predict how long their particular rifle's bore will last before requiring rebarreling. Perusing an old July 2009 issue of Field and Stream Magazine, it contained the following information as compiled by writer, David E. Petzal. I have edited the article for the salient points:

Every time you ignite a cartridge, some 5,000 to 6,000 degrees of heat is applied for a few thousandths of a second and at whatever chamber pressure the cartridge individually develops. This causes steel to melt. This is called "erosion". The more powder to burn and form gas pressure, the faster the erosion. A small case capacity with slow burn rate powders will not erode as fast as large (and overbore) capacity cases with faster burn rate powders. A fast burn rate powder will burn hotter than a slower one.

Stainless steel resists the damage of heat/pressure more so than chrome/moly steel.

Now, some generalities of useful barrel life, based on factory loaded standard ammo:

.223 Remington (3,000 to 4,000 shots)

22/250 Remington (2500 shots)

.270 Winchester (3,000 shots)

7mm Remington Magnum (1,500 shots)

30/30 Winchester (6,000 + shots) He says "God only knows, never saw one shot out!

30-06 (4,000 to 5,000 shots)

.300 WSM (2,000 shots)

.300 Weatherby (1,000 to 1,500 shots)

.338 Winchester Magnum (2,500 to 3,000 shots)

An interesting side note: gunsmith Melvin Forbes told Petzel he saw something like 3,000 rifles come in for rebarreling, but only found 3 that were actually shot out. The other 2,997 were due to neglect in not cleaning or improper cleaning.

Moral of post - don't overheat the barrel while shooting (should be able to keep hand comfortably grasping barrel), use the slowest powder that provides adequate accuracy, be knowledgeable of proper cleaning techniques and clean when accuracy tails off.

mannyrock · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2010, 07:48:46 AM »

Well then, it sounds as if the .223 is the cheapest way to go. I just hate looking for .22 caliber holes in the target at longer ranges.

Best of luck,
Mannyrock

roper · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2010, 08:51:08 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on November 16, 2010, 03:46:56 AM

I have put off---for several years---a .223 project.
I am not a real tactical person and I have a hard time understanding upper and lower lingo and standards.
At the range I belong to, we have about 400 yards of available space for rifles---and that is fine for me as I am really not into sooting a mile and a half--just punching paper.
400 Yards is a little far for rim fire--I think--correct me if I am wrong.
I am 70 and don't want a large recoil rifle.
The 25-06, 6mm are intreguing but ammo is pretty pricey--the .243 is a good-un but barrel life is reported to be short.
.223 seems to be the best option--but that is why I am hear and not buying.
What do you guys think--is the first question---we will get into a build after I am satisfied with caliber decisions.
Blessings

I own customs in the following calibers 222,222AI,223,223AI,22BR,6BR,243,243AI,6RemAI,6ppc plus afew others

400yds is a stretch for a 223 unless you are plan on building a rifle to handle the VLD bullets. Don't get me wrong when I say this but if I'm going to shoot groups @ 400yds I'm going to shoot a 6mm rifle might even use a 7mm rifle depending on conditions (wind etc).

You might want to look at the 6BR brass is alittle pricey but last forever got some good 6mm bullets can do a no turn neck.

no guns here · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2010, 09:32:31 AM »

Quote

If you don't handload, then the .223 is really your only option for paper punching at fairly reasonable ammo prices.

and... I hate to agree with Swampy but...

Quote

I'd get a Remington Model 700 SPS in .223

If you reload, it might be advantageous to pick up something in a 6mm or 6.5mm instead of the .223.

NGH

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2010, 11:44:06 AM »

7mm and .270 are just above the edge for shooting bench rest very much---recoil wise. That is unless you go to a build and can get some of the new recoil pads that absorb most of the shock.
I have reloaded for a few years now but really do not enjoy the process most of the time---seems like I just never have the time to sit down for two or three hours and load up 200 rounds of anything.
This seems to be the reason the .223 project falls apart on me---just to many pitfalls.
We will see---I might do it just to say i have one and won't have to look back or forward.
Anywho it is good conversation with some good boys.
Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2010, 05:57:51 AM »

I have a number of 223 rifles.
I do not think you will or can go wrong with them.
I use 55 grain FMJ boat Tails from American Eagle in my AR (used to be really cheap and is very accurate- at least as accurate as I am or with my realods)
I use the Rem/ UMC bulk box 45 grain JHP in my M700 SPS as well as the T/ C 14" handgun and 16.25" carbine
and I use the Remington 50 grain Soft points in the Cz 527.

The 700 is a very heavy rifle an has not taken many animals. It has taken bottle caps off soda bottles at 200 yards on a regular basis at the range. The range I belonged to was only 225 yards.

The Cz on a trip to AZ this past Febuary took two Javilina with the 50 grain bullets. Mine was a simple 110 yards by (range finder) and a buddy that ran out of ammo trying to hit one cross canyon on the run. I handed him my little Cz and he made a .11 miles or just around 200 yards .11 miles sounds more impressive (done by the GPS) Bullets acted perfectly ans was recovered just under the far side skin.
The AR is iron sighted and used in a Hi Power shoots as well as local 3 gun shoots. Fun gun. Amazing accuracy, but really noisy with the break on it.

williamlayton · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2010, 12:59:53 PM »

Mundane questions and thoughts.
Why a muzzle break on an AR?
$800 is just a number that I read--how about $400.
I think I would not get the Remmy---but the Savage intigues me from a lot of reads.
An AR would be a more simple barrel swap--I think.
I would put a 22 or 24 inch barrel on it.
I don't need a lot of stuff to hang extra tacticle stuff off of it.
What kind of price---maybe $800.
I would like a bi-pod---maybe not---I don't get up so easy when I get down, anynore.
I have need of a good scope--just so I can see the target--much less the "X".
What if I got the range down to 200 yards?
Fun discussion with some good guys.
Blessings

Bigeasy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »

William

Based on my experience with half a dozen .223 rifles, I think you would find it a good choice, based on accuracy, recoil, ammo price and availability, and ammo selection.

One of the keys to long range with a .223 is to select a rifle with a barrel with a fast twist, 1 in 9 or faster, to take advantage of the heavy for caliber, streamlined bullets available for the .223. These loads are certainly capable of good groups at 400 yards in an accurate rifle.

For informal target shooting, unless you are an AR fan, I would look for a bolt action rifle, as AR's that are target grade generally cost quite a bit more then a good bolt. If you are worried about barrel life, stainless steel is a good option. The 4 to 5 thousand round barrel life quoted above is a lot of shooting with a bolt, when you are taking your time with each shot. I think a good barrel will last longer. I have a Colt AR Match Target with at least 9 or 10 thousand thru it, and it still shoots 1 1/4 at 100 yards, on slightly less than when it was new.

A good high power fixed power scope with fine cross hairs, along with a spotting scope will work fine for bench use. I'm not a big fan of mil-dot type reticule's for target use. I'd rather have my elevation knob marked with 100, 200, 300, and 400 yard settings. A good scope will give you good repeatability in adjustment. Most bench shooters are not as concerned with hitting the exact bullseye, but in the size of the group.

Forget a bi-pod. For bench shooting, you want a good sand bag system, front and rear. All else being equal, shorter, heavy barrels tend to be more consistent then longer barrels. Savages have gained quite a reputation for accuracy for not a lot of $.

Good luck, its an enjoyable way to spend an afternoon, and tinkering with things can become obsessive trying to wring out that last 1/8 inch..

Larry

williamlayton · « **Reply #12 on:** November 18, 2010, 12:51:54 AM »

If I could settle my own mind---I think I had a mind once, think I put it in storage when I got married--on distance, it would be a big help.
I keep doing a two step between the .17HMR at 200 yds and the .223 for 400 yds----and before you say it, I KNOW, get both.
Both offer something intreguing and fun.
Savage has some fun looking .17 HMR's---and for not much dollars, they will set 'em up for you to shoot right.
Dang it all boys---keep talking--we will get there---I also bet there are some lurkers here, going thru the same two step.
Blessings

pastorp · « **Reply #13 on:** November 18, 2010, 02:32:33 AM »

William, Get a rifle with chrome lined, fast twist (1x7) in 223 barrel in your choice of action. The chrome lined barrell will increase barrel life by 4 or 5 times and the fast twist will stabelise the heavy 69gr bullets.

There ya go, your problem's solved.

Regards,

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** November 18, 2010, 02:35:51 AM »

Get a rifle. Don't get an AR.

williamlayton · « **Reply #15 on:** November 18, 2010, 03:26:22 AM »

Swamp
I think I agree with that and have put the AR aside---never know when it will raise its ugly head again though.
The Savages are looking better and better----wish there was a solution to the mag propblems though. Anyway, no system is perfect.
Blessings

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #16 on:** November 18, 2010, 08:45:45 AM »

My AR is a Armalite and it came with a muzzle break from the factory.
I hated it for years.
It was loud, blew dirt and grime every where.
The only funny part of it was on line for the high power match the blast would blow one of my fellow shooters hat up and his toupe and then both would settle.
When we started shooting the 3 gun matches (I am not tommy tacticle) some of the guys were amazed at how fast I could do a double tap on some of the 100 to 200 yard targets.
After the match and when the range went hot a few of the guys wanted me to shoot their rifles and then they wanted to shoot mine.
The muzzle break on my rifle recoiled the rifle strait back and I kept the target in the sights the whole time.
Wih the flash hiders and the plain barrels the muzzle climbs a little.
My AR has a 20" barrel, Fixed carry handle with target sights (not combat) Green funriture - solid stock and the only thing hanging from it is a Black leather military sling that I remove for the standing part of the Hi Power shoot. All in all it looks like a green stocked M16A2 with the bump at the muzzle.
Oh and a different grip. I did not like the small military grip, I ordered one from Dillion that matches color but moves my hand back and allows me to use only the end of my finger comfortably on the trigger. It rides in a Boydt green gun case like my hunting rifles.

The Ar Platform is capible of really good accuracy. Building a flat top with a 24" barrels and low mounting a varmint scope it will be close to any bolt action. The rate of twist is going to depend on the bullets you plan on using. I have a 1:9 on mine and so far can shoot 45 grainers to 60 grainers with out a problem and accuratly. Seeing as you are looking to poke holes in paper. 55 FMJ is going to be the cheapest. the 52/ 53 grain target is going a staple in the 100 yard paper punchers. with 60 to 70 grain for longer yardage. reguardless of the action. the longer heavier bullets fly truer over distance (wind) and you will want a faster twist if that is the game you want to play 1:12 for the very heavy long slugs.

jmayton · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2010, 05:47:16 PM »

A fast twist .223 shooting 75+gr bullets will do the job out to 600. Heck, I can hit 12" steel targets at 600 with a 55gr out of a 16" barrel M4. If I were getting something for supreme accuracy at that range it would be a .260 or a 6.5-06. Great BC, low recoil, good barrel life, built off of standard cartridges, what's not to like?

williamlayton · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2010, 12:31:20 AM »

HUMMMMMM.
Glad my life is not dependant on making this decision quickly---I just can't get my head set on this---I am being a waffel queen.
Good conversation though.
Blessings

Catfish · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2010, 12:14:41 PM »

243 short barrel life?

Not in my oppenion. Now with my 22-6mm I got abt 1000 rounds down the tube before the through was clear gone. I don`t know yet what I`ll get with my 6-284 yet but I`m not going to hot rod ir like I did the 22-6mm., but then I just set the barrel back and rechambered it so it`s ready to go again, and I have a spair barrel ready to go when the throught goes again. If your not going behond 400 yrds. the 243 would be and excellant choice and get a 1 in 8 twist and shoot the 107 gr. Sierra or Berger Bullets and you should be very happy. If you want cheaper the 223 with a 1 in 9 twist and 69 gr. Sierra bullets will do real well. Just alittle more drop and drift.

leather5to1 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 28, 2010, 09:46:40 AM »

If you want to paper punch and don't reload I'd go with a rimfire. I like the 17 hmr but I wouldn't shoot it past 100 yards for target. After that there is too much wind to contend with unless you need practice reading and doping. Some guys don't like or want to get into that. It is a good skill to learn though. You can have more fun if you aren't looking at the price tags on boxes of 223s let alone any of the other centerfires mentioned. The savage 93 17s are very accurate right out of the box. I wouldn't bother with centerfire factory ammo at all. That stuff is way to unpredictable. I have never seen a gun that will shoot factory better than handloads, and if you are taget shooting you will know the difference. By the way recoil out of a varmint barrel 17 is like a pellet gun.

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** November 28, 2010, 10:29:15 AM »

Just picked up a Model 700 ADL in .223 for $315.00 out the door. It will be a faux CDL in a few days.

leather5to1 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2010, 06:40:58 PM »

Nice, love the adl, hate that black tip on the bdl, 223 will be around forever. Only reason I have one, I know that no matter what I can go anywhere and get ammo in a pinch.