barrel break in?

[kf4ocv]

I read the faq but I dont want to spend a fortune on ammo.  Here's what I have hoppes oil,  hoppes #9 solvent,  and hoppes foaming bore cleaner.  40 rounds of ammo.  What do you think?

[necchi]

Use the solvent and the bore cleaner,
 ,,then several dry patches, be sure to get all solvent, cleaning stuff and oils OFF the latch and shelf. That's the part that moves inside the frame(latch) and the part on the breech end of the barrel just under the chamber (shelf). (I use brake cleaner there)
 Then shoot the ammo.
Some shoot really well right out of the box, most (mine at least) don't begin to group well until the bore is fouled, 8-10 shots for mine.   
 Then don't clean it again, at least until your done with your second 40 round box.
I know that goes against just about all manuals and training, but these things generally like dirty bores, 

[trotterlg]

Barrel breakin is an urban mith.  Just go and shoot the gun, there is so much violence going on in the chamber and barrel when your fire the rifle that no amount of cleaning or preperation will make a bit of difference.  Larry

[Tommie D]

I clean a new barrel just to make sure their's nothing in it then go shoot the "fun" out of it.

[cwlongshot]

Guys,
 I have said this till I'm blue in the face.. EVERY barrel is different... As barrels are made the broach gets duller and duller until it is discarded. This means the first barrels cut are cut clean and sharp, as the consecutive barrels get cut you get more and more chatter. (Roughness) The rougher, the dirtier they get because the "nooks and Crannies " hold fouling. The dirtier barrels need the most attention. IE, cleaning, and polishing to get them to shoot better. Not to mention shooters have a wide variance of abilities and willingness to accept group size. Some just know they cannot shoot well and accept 4" groups at 100 because the deer or hog they shoot has almost an 8" vital zone. While others feel the need for sub MOA groupings or the gun is considered junk. Most are somewhere in the middle.

Lest face it, these are cheap guns. They make the most of the machinery and make more of what they accept as "good" barrels than a top end manufacturer such as Shillen, or Hart barrel would consider acceptable. BUT our complete guns cost less than these mfgers BARRELS ALONE do, so we get what we paid for. Most of us are willing to work with what we have, calling it fun and saving some $$ in the mix.

Cleaning barrels and how they shoot is part and parcel to this. A rough barrel will shoot better dirty, because the variances are filled with fouling, smoothing them out allowing  for better bullet travel. A perfect clean barrel will do the same, only with even better hold and stabilization on the bullet resulting in better accuracy. Look to hi power rifle shooters. Do you think they shoot a dirty barrel in a competition? NO THEY DO NOT! They DO shoot a fouled bore, this is with a couple bullets fired before shooting for group. These guys have good barrels. I'm not saying you must clean the handis for them to shoot, in fact because the barrels can be rough they many times shoot better a little dirty. Just informing of the reasons. Its not a cart blanche opinion that all barrels shoot better dirty or need break in.

Speaking of break in, Sorry Larry I must disagree, barrel break in is a real thing, for a real barrel.  Again, look to quality barrel makers. They recommend shoot and clean shoot and clean over and over till X number of rounds are fired. Never allowing it to get too hot. If the barrel is too hot to touch or hold your hand on the barrel its far too hot to shoot. Applying these break in to a handi can be a fruitless proposition. Because of the chances you have a overly rough bore. This is why some resort to polishing the bore, something unthinkable from a quality barrel.

 I do agree with Larry when he says, just go shoot yours, see what it will do. I prefer to keep mine clean to start and fire a couple fouling shots to see what I get. If not so good. I fire more and try again. If groups settle down. you may have one that likes it dirty. Just shoot it. Maybe run a solvent saturated patch thru the bore every once in a while and shoot again. No brush as it may remove too much debris. You just gotta try different things to see what your barrel prefers. As we all have opinions on what to do, but what YOUR BARREL WANTS is all that matters! Because ALL BARRELS are different. 

Merry Christmas,
 CW

[Shu]

This is for sure a hot topic.

Google "Gale Mcmillan barrel break in procedure". His rifles set a few world records and he was a shooter/builder. To me he probably is the best source on this subject. To cut to the chase he would immediately void any rifle warranty of his if you ran something other than a cleaner down his barrels.

Part of shooting is confidence, meaning if you feal like running something through your barrel thinking it might give you an edge... well it is your barrel.

[petemi]

Barrel breakin is an urban mith.  Just go and shoot the gun, there is so much violence going on in the chamber and barrel when your fire the rifle that no amount of cleaning or preperation will make a bit of difference.  Larry

I agree with Larry.  I just clean the latch shelf and latch and shoot it......let the bullets clean the bore.  I can't see cleaning it just to have to shoot it more to foul it.

Pete

[AtlLaw]

Barrel breakin is an urban mith.  Just go and shoot the gun,

This has been my experience.  For whatever that's worth!     I just know when this break in stuff first came about I wore out 2 cleaning rods and my arm and never saw any difference.   

Nowadays all I do is clean a barrel a little more often after shooting and stroke it a few times with JB for a while (note the scientific measurements of time and number here!    ).  Mostly I shoot it!

[reclusej]

Hey 'CW' Thanks for the commentary on barrel break-in.
 It makes sense to me . reclusej

[Shu]

There are tool marks etc inside every barrel. Ever look at one with a bore scope. Not just a light but a the thing that goes down the barrel and you can see everything. Once you start looking at the thing this way you can see the nice sharp edges on the rifiling. It's those nice sharp edges that grip the bullet and give us acuracy. Why would you want to polish those out with anything other than firing it. Shooting the rifle causes wear, harsh cleaning methods cause even more wear and you want to put some type of abrasive down your barrel... why?

There is a ton of great information on this sight but barrel break in is one thing, I'll do my way. Shoot it, shoot some more, shoot it again, then when I am ready I'll shoot it again. When I clean it it will be with Hoppe's number 9 and a bronze brush. Nylon is actually abrasive. I am very careful to not ding my rifling with the tip of the cleaning rod. Something you can see with a bore scope also.

Gale McMillan asked one time, what do you think is happening when you fire a bullet down the barrel?
Hot gases, powder residue and bullet residue fill up all those nooks and crannies. It also starts to erode those nice sharp edges off the rifling. When those nice sharp edges go away it's time to replace the barrel.

Also serious bench resters replace barrels every 3k to 5k rounds. They dont put polishing compound in  thier bores either. They do clean them and fire a few fouling shots prior to competitions. We are of course talking about sub moa accuracy and not minute of deer or soda can accuracy.

Put what you want down your bore. I'll just keep shooting and we both can be happy.

[quickdtoo]

Also serious bench resters replace barrels every 3k to 5k rounds. They dont put polishing compound in  thier bores either. They do clean them and fire a few fouling shots prior to competitions. We are of course talking about sub moa accuracy and not minute of deer or soda can accuracy.

A fella needs to do a little more research instead of relying on one man's opinion, many serious BR shooters DO use JB Bore compound, as stated in the following article from 6mmBR/Accurate Shooter, numerous BR shooters and barrel makers use abrasives for cleaning, others won't even use a brush...of any kind, their cleaning techniques vary a great deal from minimal to extreme.  

Tim

http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html

Leading Barrel-Makers, Shooters, and Smiths Address the Brushing Issue
Precision shooters seem to be divided into two distinct schools of thought when it comes
to bore-brushing and barrel cleaning intervals. Many long-range shooters clean their barrels infrequently, and brush minimally (and in some cases not at all). "Point-Blank" benchrest competitors, as a rule, clean very frequently, brush aggressively with bronze brushes, and regularly use abrasive compounds like JB. If frequent cleaning works best for the 100-200 yard game, why has it fallen out of favor for longer range shooters? Could it be that the relatively short competitive life of point-blank barrels is associated with aggressive cleaning methods? Is there a middle ground suitable for all disciplines? Can alternative products, such as Wipe-Out Foam, reduce the need for labor-intensive cleaning with rod and brush?

We polled a number of barrel-makers, short- and long-range shooters, and gunsmiths about their preferred barrel cleaning methods. Their answers may not resolve the question "How often should I clean my bore?", but their opinions certainly give one reason to re-think what is most beneficial for accuracy and barrel life.

 

CONCLUSIONS--Editor's Thoughts
If you read through the many perspectives above, a few themes come through. First, the short-range Benchrest guys are doing a LOT of brushing, while many of the winning 600- and 1000-yard shooters are cleaning fairly infrequently, and are NOT using bronze brushes. It also appears that most barrel-makers still advocate frequent cleaning with bronze brushes. However, I'm not sure most barrel-makers have actually studied the effect of brushing on barrel life in a scientific fashion, nor have they really explored the potential benefits of brushless cleaning alternatives.

Now, many top "point-blank" group shooters toss their barrels after 500-700 rounds, and in some cases, as little as 300 rounds. It may be that to obtain benchrest competitive accuracy, i.e. a barrel capable of shooting "zero" groups, you have to clean often and brush aggressively. However, many of the 100-200 yard score shooters, whose 30BR guns can shoot in the low ones (when tested for group) are finding that cleaning less often (and less aggressively) has NOT reduced their scores. Furthermore, these 30BR shooters are getting thousands of rounds of accurate life from their barrels. Is a 30BR THAT different from a 6PPC? Or is the short life of PPC barrels attributable, at least in part, to over-cleaning?

The short-range PPC group shooters will laugh at you if you suggest that aggressive brushing with bronze brushes, coupled with regular use of JB, is shortening the life of their barrels. However, these same people will acknowledge that their barrels have very short "max-accuracy" life. They consider barrels to be consumables, like powders and primers.

I doubt anything will change in the short-range group-shooting game as long as Tony Boyer and other Hall of Famers brush aggressively between groups. Right or wrong, the top dogs believe you can't shoot winning Aggs without frequent, aggressive brushing. However, the empirical evidence tells me that such aggressive cleaning procedures may also shorten barrel life. I can't prove that (until we commission a long-term barrel test), but that's my opinion. Maybe heavy brushing, over time, simply wears down the edges of the lands. Perhaps heavy brushing may rough the flat surfaces inside of the bore, which, in turn, creates more tiny edges to catch fouling, which then necessitates frequent cleaning. It may be a self-perpetuating cycle--aggressive cleaning creating a bore condition that fouls faster and so needs to be brushed (and periodica ly JB'd) throughout its life cycle. If that's the case, the PPC guys (with their frequent cleaning) may correctly be doing exactly what it takes to win--once they start down the heavy-brushing path. But the question remains, is there an alternative? Will some top PPC shooters be brave enough to try a minimalist approach?

What I would advocate is that, rather than jump right into a heavy brushing regimen, you should consider the alternatives first. Go out and see how your barrel really performs with 25, 35, or even 45 rounds between cleanings. Log your group sizes and check for variances in velocity. There are those who say going long intervals between cleaning will damage barrels. I haven't really seen the evidence of that. What I do see is a lot of PPC barrels worn-out after 600 rounds when they've been brushed aggressively every 10 rounds or so. I don't see quality barrels giving up the ghost so early when they have been brushed infrequently, with bronze brushes used sparingly.

My own 3-groove, 8-twist 6BR barrel has never seen a brush in over 400 rounds and I've never used JB, Rem-Clean, or Iosso paste. I clean with wet patches and Wipe-Out only, and the lands are still very sharp, the crown is undamaged, copper fouling is negligible, there's no carbon problem, and accuracy is as good as new. I'm not suggesting that my methods will work for top PPC competitors, but for the rest of us, the "less is more" approach is worth trying.

[STUMPJMPR]

I rarely clean my barrels.  Breaking in a barrel doesn't do much for groups in my opinion.  Most guns I have owned shoot better dirty.  The first shot after cleaning a barrel is usually a flyer anyhow.

[zackyholdem]

if its new factory, then just clean the barrel to get the machining residue out of it grease/oils and have fun shooting it!

[gendoc]

hey cw,  there for a lil'while i wasa thinkin the other meaning for....your abbreviation !!!!

"BUT our complete guns cost less than these mfgers BARRELS ALONE"

[Shu]

This topic is a hornets nest at best.

There are shooters on this forum that know a heck of alot about shooting and there is some tremendous advice here. Put what you want down the bore of your gun, it is your gun you paid for it. I know what works well for me. Others know what works well for them.
One mans opinion, is well just that one mans opinion.

Merry CHRISTmas all
 

[gendoc]

This topic is a hornets nest at best.

There are shooters on this forum that know a heck of alot about shooting and there is some tremendous advice here. Put what you want down the bore of your gun, it is your gun you paid for it. I know what works well for me. Others know what works well for them.
One mans opinion, is well just that one mans opinion.

Merry CHRISTmas all
 

well put !!!! cud'nt said no better my own self.......

[cwlongshot]

A fellow needs to do a little more research instead of relying on one man's opinion, many serious BR shooters DO use JB Bore compound, as stated in the following article from 6mmBR/Accurate Shooter, numerous BR shooters and barrel makers use abrasives for cleaning, others won't even use a brush...of any kind, their cleaning techniques vary a great deal from minimal to extreme. 

Tim

 

Yes Tim, many bench rests DO use JB Bore Paste... But they use it to CLEAN their bores. Not to polish them.  Its a huge difference. We are speaking about cleaning or not cleaning, as it pertains to barrel break in.
 JB is made for cleaning and it contains a very, very fine abrasive suspended in a solvent paste. We all know copper fouling is very hard to remove, Molly is near impossible. JB does a good job on both. It’s mild and makes a quick job of it. It is NOT designed to remove steel from the barrel, it is designed to remove fouling. More specifically, Copper, Lead, Molly and powder residue.
 You shouldn’t just find and paste a quote and take it as if it’s 100% gospel. What you end up with is a true enough statement, but one taken out of context. Also, as I stated and Tim, you repeated, some also use NO brushes. Many more bores are ruined by cleaning rods and brushes than every is done by shooting alone. This doesn’t mean don’t clean, it means clean properly!

 Don't get me wrong guys, obviously you will do what you want. It's not my barrel you will be working with. I really care and would simply hate for you to take one method as the only way, (I like to call it gospel.) only to later find out something else works better. I try to dispel some of the "misinformation" I in the gun industry. There are truths and facts and then there are opinions. Case in point, I read articles in gun rags all the time, (I'm sure you do too.) where Joe Author prints something you know simply isn't so. Even educated well respected people, who should know, continually publish writings that are FAR from the truths in the real world.

Back on topic, I fully admit that something that works with a fine custom barrel MAY have no use with a crap barrel, but what if your "crap barrel" turns out to be a good one???  Allowing your barrel to get dirty to see if it likes it that way is fine, but one thing is for absolutely certain eventually it will become too dirty. How do you maintain a just dirty enough point??? What happens as the roughness of that bore is polished out??? What happens when you find one that shoots best squeaky clean??? Absolutes and all the times, are not a common occurrence.
I have a couple Handi’s that actually prefer a clean barrel! These also happen to be some of my most accurate barrels. I have a couple 22 rifles that do well dirty, but my Benelli M90 and Walther OSP target 22 autos, DEFINITELY like it CLEAN! I have a fine old Hamden built, High Standard M101 Olympic 22Short that refuse to group at all if not cleaned every 100 rounds or so. I also have three custom Shilen Barreled bolt rifles. The 6.5/06 shot tiny groups right from the starting gate. It’s clean or nothing for it. Then my Whelen doesn't care about anything, sans copper fouling. Once it gets too much copper, it starts to open its groups. Lastly the 280 started out a excellent shooter, but now that its got a couple hundred rounds thru it, its needing a couple shots thru its bore to group well. So, as you can see, I too have some that like it dirty or at the least dirtier. Each of you also has his own experiences driving your opinions. If what your doing works for you, no one should change your minds.

 Another fact, every year gunsmiths make many $$  “fixing” rifles that simply will no longer shoot good groups. You may be surprised to learn, MANY are simply "fixed by properly and completely cleaning them! The simple fact is sooner or later, Copper, Lead and powder fouling WILL have an adverse effect of accuracy. Anyone who says different simply isn’t being truthful with you or them selves.

As for break in and cleaning, don’t listen to me or anyone else here. At least anyone who is not making a living making gun barrels. Go read what the manufacturers have to say. This is what they do and what they stake there reputations on. All should agree, that these guys know there stuff.

Shilen barrels says:

How do I clean my new Shilen barrel?
As with break-in and using coated bullets, you will find many diverse opinions on this subject.
EQUIPMENT: Cleaning Rods: Use a good quality coated cleaning rod with a rotating handle. The rotating handle allows the brush or patch to follow the lands and grooves. A non rotating handle forces the brush bristles to jump over the lands and grooves instead of following them.
BRUSHES: Use a good brass or bronze brush with a looped end. Do not use a brush with a sharp, pointed end.
SOLVENTS:
Every shooting product manufacturer has their own miracle solvent, and most do the job as advertised.
BORE GUIDES: Highly recommended!
PATCHES: Flannel or cotton patches work the best. Either trim or fold your patch to insure that it will fit snugly into the bore, but not so tightly you have to force it. Forcing a patch causes the rod to flex inside the bore of the rifle. If you are using a coated rod, this usually won't hurt anything, but the uncoated stainless steel rods that some shooters use can batter against the inside of the bore and damage rifling.
PROCEDURE: Once again, many different procedures abound. All accomplish basically the same thing. Here's ours: With the bore guide and the brass brush on the cleaning rod, apply the solvent to the brush by dipping it in the bottle or squirting a few drops on the brush. Slide the bore guide up over the brush and insert the bore guide into the chamber with a twisting motion. Push the brush through the barrel until it comes out the end of the muzzle. Now pull the brush back into the chamber guide. This is one "cycle". Make one cycle for each bullet fired, then apply more solvent to the brush and repeat this procedure. Now, fold or cut the patch for a snug, not tight, fit. Push the  first patch all the way through the bore and out the muzzle. As you draw the rod back, the patch should fall off. Put on another patch and push it towards the muzzle until you can feel it touch your finger placed over the muzzle. Then draw the patch back to the chamber and push it once more out the end of the muzzle so that it drops off. Repeat this with one more patch and you are finished. If you are through shooting for the day, lightly wet a patch with a light viscosity machine oil to prevent or retard rust. Push this patch through the bore. Let it drop out the muzzle, and you are done.

HART barrels says:

What do you recommend for barrel break-in?
We do not believe that a break in procedure is required with our barrels. If you follow our normal cleaning procedure, outlined in this brochure, you should not have any problems with your new rifle. You always want to clean your rifle as often as your course of fire will allow. If you have time to shoot one and clean, that would be fine, but we personally do not feel it is necessary. Please be sure to only use the cleaning solvents listed in our cleaning instructions.

Krieger barrel says:

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm

(Too long to copy paste. )

Lilja Precision barrels says:

Break-in Procedure
For an effective break-in the barrel should be cleaned after every shot for the first 10-12 rounds or until copper fouling stops. Our procedure is to push a cotton patch that is wet with solvent through the barrel. This will remove much of the powder fouling and wet the inside of the barrel with solvent. Next, wet a bronze brush with solvent and stroke the barrel 5-10 times. Follow this by another wet patch and then one dry patch. Now soak the barrel with a strong copper removing solvent until all of the blue mess is removed from the barrel. The copper fouling will be heavy for a few rounds and then taper off quickly in just one or two shots. Once it has stopped or diminished significantly it is time to start shooting 5 shot groups, cleaning after each one. After 25-30 rounds clean at a normal interval of 10-25 rounds. Your barrel is now broken-in.

Bullberry barrel works says;

"What is your recommended method to break-in a barrel?"
This is the most frequently asked question from customers purchasing a new Bullberry barrel. My stock answer is, "With a premium factory lapped barrel in your hands the break-in has already been done." This is a true statement, but we also want you to take care of your new barrel.
I feel strongly that the barrel should apply one of the new synthetic bore treatment products now available, in order to prevent any type of fouling. We now furnish a sample of Eezox™ Premium Gun Care with all new barrels in an effort to save you time, energy, and most importantly, to give you the most accurate firearm possible.
Use Eezox™ to clean your barrel initially and after every shooting session. It's easy--- a couple of wet patches followed by a tight dry patch will usually suffice---no need to overdo it! A gray residue will show on your final patch. Don't work to remove this as it will allow for continued lubrication and treatment. Using Eezox™ will offer the advantages of moly-coated bullets without the danger of moly buildup. Eezox™ is great for properly cleaned older barrels too. Even barrels which have been minorly copper-fouled can be cleaned using very fine steel wool with Eezox™, and will always be a more successful choice than an ammonia based copper solvent as Eezox™ will NOT open the microscopic pores in the barrel metal which allows for worse fouling in the future.


If you take nothing from what I have written, PLEASE understand all barrels are different. We could go back and forth with this adinfonitum. YOU need to try out different things and see what YOUR barrel likes!!

Merry Christmas,
 CW

[quickdtoo]

I just let the bore tell me what I should do, if it looks nice and shiny like many H&R barrels do, I just clean and shoot it, but if it looks dull and rough, it gets the Varmint Al JB or Flitz treatment minus the moly bullets, then shoot it, that shoot and clean/shoot and clean break-in business may work for the fellas that spend $300-$500 on a barrel, but Handi's don't have $300 barrels either!    

Tim

http://varmintal.com/ashot.htm#Break

NEW BARREL BREAK IN.... There is so much black magic out there about breaking in a barrel, that I am not going to suggest any procedure. I will merely tell you what I do with a new barrel. I take the brand new barrel and use J-B on it. That's right, I clean and polish it with J-B before even firing the first round through it. I put a light coat of J-B on a patch and give the barrel about 50 strokes from end to end with it. Then I clean the J-B out with a couple of patches of Shooter's Choice MC#7. I dry the bore with 3 or 4 patches until it is completely dry. I carefully clean the chamber of J-B too. That's it, the barrel is broken in and I am ready to sight in, shoot some groups, and work up an accurate load. I take the rifle to the range and shoot 3 or 4 five shot groups with Moly-coated bullets. I clean the barrel with Sweet's 7.62 and usually there is no copper. From then on, shooting only Moly-coated bullets, I clean the barrel when I feel guilty. If there is copper on the first cleaning, I conclude that I didn't do enough with the J-B and repeat the J-B treatment. All that these shoot-clean, shoot-clean, etc. break in processes do, in my opinion, is perform a slow, inefficient, and expensive polishing process which the J-B does better, smoother, and faster. I use a plastic coated stainless steel cleaning rod and a jag style that you wrap the patches around. I use the blue Shop Towels for patch material and I cut a roll into a number of 1-½-inch wide rolls with a sharp knife. I never use brushes in my barrels and I don't even have any. I use J-B, Shooter's Choice MC#7, and Sweet's 7.62. I am sure there are other procedures that are just as good or superior, but this works very well for me. If I have a particularly bad copper fouling barrel, I use Flitz Metal Polish instead of JB. Here and you can see what Shilen recommends for breaking in a new barrel.

NOTE. A J-B patch will turn black even after the barrel is clean so you shouldn’t try to clean a barrel with J-B until the patch remains "clean".

WHAT IS J-B?... J-B Non Embedding Bore Cleaning Compound. My two ounce jar of J-B has lasted me for 15+ years and is still going strong. It is a bore cleaning compound that polishes the bore. Here is more info I have just received and verified on J-B. Page 229 of Brownells' catalog #50 has a complete write up on the "J-B bore cleaning compound". It claims this to be the original formula developed by Jim Brobst (Jim Brobst is the name on my old jar of J-B) and produced under an exclusive license. From them, a two ounce jar sells for $5.95. Brownells' phone number is (515) 623-5401.

[kf4ocv]

Thanks for the info.  I work a 24hr shift so there's plenty of downtime,  yesterday at work I ran an oily patch thru it followed by a couple dry ones and ended with another oily one.  The bore shined like a mirror.  I going to try it after Christmas,  I will post the results.  A coworker of mine told me to always push the patch toward the muzzle only.  I have heard of this before.  I always go down and back.  I have a feeling that this is another one of those things that varies person to person.  LOL   

[gcrank1]

Are you using a chamber guide (a 'case' with a rod sized hole) to protect the ALL IMPORTANT throat and rifling leade?
The rod should just push the patch and crud out the muzzle but NOT drop the rod down on the rifling on the ALL IMPORTANT crown.
I use, generally, two patches wet with Ed's Red (homemade, look it up on the 'net). The first one pushes out the crud, the second one usually looks pretty clean. If not I do another one.
Before shooting again I run two dry patches and go.
With the gun new, clean the bore and go play with it; you and it have to get introduced anyway. Sight it in and shoot at some 'big stuff', just feeling it out. Dont even try for groups until after 40 or more rounds. If you are hitting stuff you will be feeling good about the gun and gaining confidence.
Then shoot some groups, if you dont like the size of them shoot one of your other rifles that you like (that has comparable sighting equipment) at the same target, same day, same conditions. Sometimes that group size is all Im good for that day, no sense getting bummed about the rifle when its just me.