Sustainable Nomadism

[teamnelson]

Lot of folks think sustainability means staying put, building up a self-sufficient homestead, and can't imagine any other sustatinable lifestyle. When you talk about the need to move, they tell you now you're talking about survival. That doesn't wash with history though. Countless millions throughout history have engaged in a sustainable nomadic lifestyle, whether by choice or in response to a natural catastrophe. So many of the "survival" skills we talk about are skills perfected by nomads; not by people moving from one homestead to another. I would argue that those skills are part of a sustainable lifestyle.

I had the good fortune of spending time with one of the Somali nomadic tribes in east Africa. They will spend 3/4ths of the year herding their camels across the deserts from one water spot to another, often with very little in the way of supplies. They will literally go days on the camel's milk alone, eating very little meat or fruits/vegetables. Its a hard life, but one they've been doing for centuries. The only time they stop is for family business, trade, etc. I've spent time with the Bedou on the SA peninsula; same deal. In fact most city Saudis have a secret wish to run off and live like the Bedou.

Thought I'd throw this out there to see if anyone thinks along these lines. When a "survival" skill becomes a part of your daily routine, is it not also "sustainable" living?

[bigbird09]

For me survival skill is when something bad goes wrong and you have fend for your self for a few days making your own shelter, fire, etc, for emergency purposes.  If you are doing for weeks, months years , then it becomes more sustainable living, even if you have to move to knew areas every few months for whatever reason.

[briarpatch]

Where would you nomad at? When I look at a map of this country there are few places I could lay a pencil point and not hit a city or real close to one. 

[Pat/Rick]

Always kinda dream back and wonder if when I was younger what it would be like to follow the caribou herds in SW AK eeking out an existence. Don't know of any other place you could get close to a nomadic lifestyle inthe USA.

Now, I would think about being mobile aboard a sloop. Travelling from Puget Sound in winter, north through the Inside Passage in spring summer, too repeat the trip south for winter. Always figured you could trade fish and crab for staples, fuel, or just sell if things got rough.

But, I'm too beat up to go either route, now I'd have to limit myself to a .22 and tweety birds.   

I would think that now would be like the bedouins and others, you would still have to rely on consistent groups to trade with, not every group is going to have everything. Especially if your territories overlap. Hunting, gathering, fire starting, basic skills et al would have to be a given to live long enough to be nomadic.

Team Nelson, what a gift for you to be able to physically experience that lifestyle! Most of us can only dream and wonder.

[bilmac]

I agree with Briarpatch. If cities become uninhabitable, and all those folks become nomads by necessity along with you, then the countryside will very quickly become a wasteland. As this country was settled, they ate everything edible. For years there wasn't any game to be found in the areas that were homesteaded. The wildlife we have now is because we have wildlife conservation. With millions of hungry human locusts spreading out across the countryside destroying the wildlife and the farms, Lord help us.

I expect the bedoins and eskimoes who live in places that are so harsh that normal humans have no hope of surviving may be able to make out. Even eskimoes will have to relearn their old ways though.

[Pat/Rick]

bilmac, good post! .........relearn their old ways.......  I think it would be wise for all folks to learn how to can and otherwise preserve their own food now before the need turns to a make or break exercise. I'm trying and am not there yet, but may be a season ahead of many. Now is the time I wish I would of picked Grannies and Great Grannies brain a bit more, but young I was, and didn't think much less than I do now at times     

[teamnelson]

Ever meet the nomadic homeless here in the US? They summer one place, winter another. They have routes, watering holes, even caches. In the desert in AZ there's even a rendezvous of sorts. Rough but there you go.

Nomadism may not be your first choice, but it might be the only choice depending on what befalls.

[briarpatch]

No doubt the homeless may be somewhat nomadic and are tolerated, even fed in most cities. This is a small number of persons that live like rats and most are of a mental state.
Try turning loose 300,000,000 mostly lazy Americans along with 300,000,000 mexicans or more as they flood across the border to take what they can. (What happens here will be worse there)
I dont see walking around and grubbing as a good way of living or even possible.
The best way I have thought of, is to stock up with all the food, medicine and wares you can, then dig in. My kids and I are working on that now.
I do believe the greatest fear/threat we will have will be the man in uniform. Either cop or Military.

[bilmac]

I think the Amish are a people who have a better chance of seeing their way of life continue. Folks who depend on technology the least will fare the best.

Petroleum has allowed the human species to way, way overpopulate the carrying capacity of the land. I'm afraid that an adjustment is looking us in the face. This has happened many times in the past. Why some of the ancient civilizations of South America disappeared almost overnight has been a mystery, but archeologists are beginning to agree that they just overpopulated their habitat.

Ancient population adjustments were probably nothing compared to what is facing us though, because resourceful people could always flee to the wilderness before. What we face today is going to be pretty much global.

[Lost Farmboy]

I do believe the greatest fear/threat we will have will be the man in uniform. Either cop or Military.

+ 1

[Lost Farmboy]

Sustainable nomadism is very much a part of my plan.  Don't want to put all my seeds in one garden.

Plan to raise honey bees with ancient methods in multiple places.  You could survive a long time with bees alone.  Honey for energy, the bees and larvae are eatable.

I have rooting hormone in my BOB.  A few years after being abandoned yards and fields will turn to forest.  I plan to root cuttings of fruit trees and plant orchards before that happens. 

Until orchards grow will plant pole beans and peas, vines will be easier to hide than bush beans.  Garlic, shallots, bunching onions and potatoes are easy to grow.  Hidden small root cellars near by will hide fruits and vegetables.

[Dee]

As some have hit here, there are points to ponder concerning this topic, and the major point is that this is not Somalia, or Saudi Arabia. This is America with about 300,000,000 folks, and most of which have not the slightest idea of how to change the oil in their own car.
If our government breaks down, and the economy goes south, there will be several million nomads, roaming around living off whatever, and whomever they can. To put ones self out in the open would be suicide. Read the stories of the 1700 & 1800s of highwaymen, and marauding Indians, and a land far less populated than now.
I would opt for community tribeing up, with combining skills such as gardening, water purification, and expertise in arms, and security. To go into a nomadic lifestyle with an economic breakdown, would be much like being a field mouse in a field full of bobcats, coyotes, coons, and whatever else looking for a meal.
I won't say I will not move, but I will say it damn sure will be after the fight.
I am constantly practicing these skills TN is speaking of I have learned from others, and from my Cherokee heritage, but sleeping in a tepee doesn't sound as inviting as sleeping in front of my blazing fireplace if my electricity has gone south. I know what I have here, but I have nothing in the next county.jmtc

[teamnelson]

Dee, you know firsthand that before there were 300,000,000 there were nomadic peoples living here just fine so I appreciate the difference of course. I guess what I'm pondering is living after an event that might drastically reduce that number, or a chain of events. Let's face it, most folks into sustainable living are hedging a bet against the future they perceive is on the horizon ... I know a lot of us here are.

A conceivable chain of events may start with a largescale natural disaster, followed by socio-economic unrest, followed by disease, etc. The fact that most of the 300m can't change the oil in their car leads me to conclude that many will die if not in the first event, or the second event, probably in the aftermath. Its a predictable chain that's used in disaster preparedness planning as a formula. So in the space of months, again depending on variables of scale and govt response, a large number of that 300m could be gone, with more dying every day at a higher rate than present. And without a concerted effort to stop momentum, it could accelerate to a burnout peak. I've seen one plan that factored a 1% suicide rate if the event is particularly alarming. Probably a 5% accidental death rate as well, without safety controls in place and ignorance running around. That's over and above disease, violence, or disaster.

There are a large number of us that do not have the luxury of a homestead, but don't just want to curl up and die. My life will not afford me the opportunity to acquire one anytime soon either, so I am hedging my own bet against the future by preparing for the possiblity of a nomadic lifestyle, should that be the only option my family has at the time. If anyone has any suggestions about how to make that go - I said from the beginning its not everyone's ideal - I'd appreciate it. I covet your homesteads, defend them well.

[bilmac]

I understand where you're coming from TN, I was in the same condition until just receintly. My plan would be to head for the nastiest toughest country I could get to and cling to life any way I could. Pat Rick has a good idea too. I don't think that we will see populations declining real fast after an event, and there will be natural selection in effect too. Those that survive longest will be the toughest, and probably the meanest too.

[briarpatch]

People become animals during severe disasters. They are not prepared and have to take what others have to feed their family. Katrina, Egypt, Argentina.
The military as well as police will join in the looting, raping and murder with authority and impunity, again, Katrina.   (Many will disagree but examples are there.)
Compared to the size of the US, new Orleans is small but I would question wether you would be able to safely move a family through it after Katrina.
Just to throw this out there. I live on the coast of central Florida. During the hurricanes of 2004 I lost my home to Hurricane Francis. I felt we should leave before the storm hit and sent the women kids and grandkids out early enough not to get caught in the traffic jam out of Florida. We have kinfolk in NC.
I came later with a son who had to work because they would not let him leave early as he worked for the school system.
We left at the height of traffic just before the Storm hit. The enterstate highways were clogged, nobody moving. I had a map and we took all the small roads and it surprised me how little traffic were on them. Everyone was on the big roads at a standstill. Some times the roads we were on were parallel to US 95 and we could see cars just stopped but we were moving fast. We had no problem getting out of Florida because of back roads and being willing to move east or west if needed. To me a nomad would have to move this way.
As far as not having anywhere to go or stay, There is safety and help in numbers.
One thing we did when we returned home and rebuilt. We got the family together with friends and a  few people who had no help and started a group that meets monthly and discusses what to do in an emergency like a storm or national event.
We got an old uhaul trailer and met on the weekends to fix it up and put all the things we may need in it  We have everything from tools, Chainsaws to food, meds, water and fuel.  We check these about every quarter and replace or replenish as needed.
During the meetings we discuss things we may need and get those. Each couple or individual puts 5 dollars in a jar for things we may need.
We would send the old and young out first as early as possible if we had to go. Some things you cant stare in the face like a big storm. We have places designated as stay overs. If we can make it to those we would wait it out. If it is bigger we have a place in NC.
We have the stuff to make it as comfortable as possible but know we may have to sleep on the ground.
Dee has it right. Try to dig in but if you have to move, have your stuff together. 

[Hit or Miss]

Good conversation!  Unfortunately, if I have to go nomad it will mean leaving people behind which I doubt I'll be able to do. 

[Dee]

I have no intention of leaving ANYONE behind. Sure I could move if I had to, even with my physical conditions, but move where? My wife and mother could not take that kind of life, and I would never abandon them. Not even to death.
There is no doubt that bands of thieves would quickly form, and looters would come, but I would damn shore thin some of'em out if they start their foolishness around here.

[Dixie Dude]

I believe if we had a major breakdown of society.  Probably 1/3 of Americans would be dead within a month.  Those on life support, diabetics, elderly will go first.  Gangs of people in the cities will begin to roam, kill for food etc.  Some will try to stay and find food inside the cities, some will roam outside but with no skills to hunt, fish, or garden. 

[bilmac]

There may be an option you haven't thought about. I was in the landless status myself until just a couple years ago. Land was too high for me to consider. Then the recession came. Have you really looked at all the forclosures listed in the newspapers? The only way to be aware of them is in the newspapers, as that is the requirement by law in most states.

The land is auctioned off. You have to be able to pay the day of the auction. This keeps lots of folks out of the market, but if land is going for pennies on the dollar, maybe you can afford now when you didn't think you could. Consider partnering with someone.

I feel that the hand of God has been on my shoulder throughout my experience with my property. Just one of the examples of many is that I found a partner. A guy I never knew before who wanted a part of the 40 acre place but not all, and I wanted part but not all. He wanted what I didn't and vice versa. I ended up with a 10 acre place ideal for my needs for $8,000.

[Swampman]

They used to call them hobos.

[Dee]

My mother and grandmother used to feed an occasional hobo when we lived along the tracks. They were always humble, polite, and grateful. They were wanderers that chose not to work, but they were hardly marauding bands or gangs seeking to rob, kill, or steal for a living.
Hobos? I think not.

[Swampman]

I meat that hobos (most wanted to work) were practicers of sustainable nomadism.

[Dee]

I meat that hobos (most wanted to work) were practicers of sustainable nomadism.

In that we agree. They were masters at the begging, but I doubt little else, as they leached off others whom worked.

[don heath]

The only places you still see a nomadic life style is in harsh environments that cannot support crops...and they all have a VERY low carrying capacity for people.

Everywhere there is enough sunshine and rainfall for man to break the soil and grow a crop- that is what man does- why- becuase you can support 10-20x the population in the same area and in numbers you have safety, social stability, a diverse collection of skills etc.  In the kalahari desert (which has plenty of game and good grass just no surface water) bushman population is about 1 per 5,000 acres. On the edge of the desert where I live, people grow poor crops and raise cattle and need about 40 acres per family. With my acess to underground water I can work on  10 acres per family with 1 acre devoted to crops and the other 9 to livestock or wildlife. 

[bilmac]

I would imagine that you use windmills to access your water, and you can maintain yourself there as long as you can keep the mills turning. I wouldn't figure on electricity from the grid for 10 minutes if society starts to break down

[SHOOTALL]

Nomadic  people live as they do most likely because at some point they had to . In the desert most likely it was water . In America they hunted and maybe weather. In South America they move and burn what they leave to kill off sickness. Also may tribes leave the old . Others don't live to old age.
 As for the homeless being nomads , how can eating at a church , mission or other hand out be a nomad ? At best its a long sleep out .
 Could it be done in America ? What would you do for cash or trade items ? How long would you expect to live ? Would you try to hide from the rest of the world ? Or would you just move from place to place ?
I guess the HOBO was the real thing in some ways , but he did need a paper sack to cook stew .
 I suggest that any attempt would be some hybrid type existance , The use of abandoned houses, under bridges, old sewers or dumptsters  etc is not complete self reliance.

[bilmac]

There are some places in the west now that LOOK uninhabited.  I just have the feeling that too many people are also thinking these places will be refuges. They could be, if they remain uninhabited, a resourceful man might be able  to eek out a lifestyle there.

I think a lot of people look at the mountains and picture them in the fall with gobs of game running around. They will be death traps when there is somebody on every 100 acres trying to live on game meat. Too much altitude to grow anything, and the game leaves or hibernates in the winter.

The desert southwest could be a refuge, but water is life there, and it will support far fewer folks than you would suspect because everyone will have to be jammed in along streams. Perhaps if a person had a gimmic he could make it, like going into an area far removed from water sources to reduce competition and building reservoirs to hold water. 

I like Pat Ricks idea of a sailboat in the Pacific Northwest. That landscape is very productive. Reason it is so lightly inhabited is because most of the acres there are standing on edge. I'm not as familiar with that area or it's people so I couldn't guess how many of them would have the same idea and so over use the resources

[teamnelson]

bilmac and Pat/Rick,
Someone on another board asked a what-if question, so I played the game with my son last night; if you had 24 hours, knew a survivable global event was coming, and were the only one who knew, what would you do? (If you take it at face value and play along its interesting.) He said grab one of the 40' single masters moored at the yacht club, and head for one of the uninhabited islands on the chain for awhile. I suggested maybe he wait until the event before he stole a $500k boat ... but I caught his drift.

Got us talking about how long you could sustain a nomadic lifestyle at sea - the biggest issues being fresh water, and something other than fish to eat. And piracy. 300 million folks are not going to roll with it, crack open the heirloom seeds, and form co-op communes. His thought was to let them go at it for a while, since we've no land to defend ourselves, do our best, and when things settle, reintroduce ourselves back into coastal "society." As before, good ports will become trade centers - farmers will want fish, and fishermen will want produce.

[SHOOTALL]

If you sail in an area with alot of rain you have a source of water . If you are careful you can land on islands for other food.