Would you hesitate?

[Monteria]

Mornin gentlemen,

I only recently found GBO and it sure seems to be the authority on Handies.

Back Story: I have a 30-30/20GA combo, left to me by my grand father. I currently have it set up as a youth deer rifle, a task at which it proves superb with my mild 125GR BT loads. It has killed ~20 "first deer" in the last 5 years. And, it also slings 125 and 150GR full loads at deer and pigs with great effect, when I actually get to play with my own toy.

The reality: I really know nothing about this rifle, except that it was my grandfathers. Unfortunately, the rifle is currently being used by a first time hunter (Or fortunately... 2 doe down so far this weekend), so I do not have access to SN or other indicating marks. I can assume that it was manufactured between 1978 and 1986, so I know it is not an SB2. It is case colored, and quite a bit lighter than the new ones, but I do not think that does much to identify...

The quandary: I have application for a very short, very light, pistol chambered carbine. The work will be short, dirty, fast and only in emergency situations. I must be able to carry it in an over the shoulder scabbard with no regard for its presence, as if it were not there. A 16.5" 357BBL on my lighter frame, with the youth synthetic stock, should be perfect.

The hesitation: I know that the factory will not fit any BBL to my frame, and I never even considered previously loved BBL's until I found the Oracle that is GBO. So, would you hesitate to put a 357, or 44 BBL on an older frame that was manufactured as a 30-30?

How about a 223BBL? I already load it above list in 30-30.... Where would you draw the line?

Thanks for your Knowledge,

Steve

[petemi]

Steve, I'd pick up a .357 barrel if you can find one here on the classifieds, go for it and fit it yourself.  It should be fine.

Pete

[necchi]

The work will be short, dirty, fast and only in emergency situations. I must be able to carry it in an over the shoulder scabbard with no regard for its presence, as if it were not there.  

Was, an interesting story about Grandpas gun til I got too that part, Been watching a few movies over the weekend?

[Monteria]

The work will be short, dirty, fast and only in emergency situations. I must be able to carry it in an over the shoulder scabbard with no regard for its presence, as if it were not there.  

Was, an interesting story about Grandpas gun til I got too that part, Been watching a few movies over the weekend?

No movies, just the Texas farm and ranch life. I run hog dogs for depredation control and kill several hundred feral pigs per year. Traditionally, we either kill them with a knife or hog tie them to feed out and slaughter. It is pretty much as crazy as it sounds. I have never carried a gun and I never hunt by myself, because sometimes you get into a pickle that one dude is not equipped to handle alone. As of late, my hunting partner has succumb to female persuasion, so I need a new partner in case of emergencies. People I get along with in the woods, or trust to have my back in a tight spot, and who's dogs get along with mine, are difficult to come by. Unfortunately, I cant shoot a pistol for chit... I cant see any better options than a carbine.

Steve

[cwlongshot]

Welcome!!

Sure, either the 357 or 44 would be fine. Personally the 357 would be my choice.  Forget the 223, but a hornet would be a better choice. You could even go with the magnum and later team it to maximum.

No need Tobit rod the 30-30, just loading with better bullets or some of the newer powders will net you better results at lower working pressures. Overall a safer scenario.

CW

[blind ear]

Wooooo Monteria, you gonna find a whole heepa friends here !     welcome    ear

[jedman]

     Since you have a 20 ga. bbl. I would cut it down to 18 + " and shoot cheap 7/8 oz " cut shells " for your short range purpose.

[Monteria]

Welcome!!

Sure, either the 357 or 44 would be fine. Personally the 357 would be my choice.  Forget the 223, but a hornet would be a better choice. You could even go with the magnum and later team it to maximum.

No need Tobit rod the 30-30, just loading with better bullets or some of the newer powders will net you better results at lower working pressures. Overall a safer scenario.

CW

Don't get me wrong, the 30-30 isn't going anywhere. It will be killing deer for many years to come. It simply does not fit the niche I am looking to fill. Nor would a 223, that would be more for popping coyotes, skunks and badgers.

Current consideration has no need for much power, just enough to get into a pigs cranium, but over penetration is a concern as my dogs will be in very close proximity and collateral damage is not an option. In a 357, I would use 38SP and in 44 I would load reduced. In fact, a 22LR would be perfectly sufficient 99% of the time. I had not considered a hornet, that might actually be a better solution than the 357. Something between the two would be perfect!

Steve

[Monteria]

    Since you have a 20 ga. bbl. I would cut it down to 18 + " and shoot cheap 7/8 oz " cut shells " for your short range purpose.

Collateral damage is not an option. My dogs will be far to close for anything like that, less than a foot from the target in most cases.

Steve

[MSP Ret]

The .357 and .44 Mags are OK. .223 is out, definitely. Jedman has a great idea but I suggest you do not cut your original barrel(s). Keep your dad's gun the way it was.
I suggest either an additional .347 or .44 barrel, or for the best route economically, buy an inexpensive 20 gauge barrel and do as Jedman said, cut it down to 18" (use a pipe cutter to keep it square) plus a bit for the Feds, 1/8" or 1/4" or so and shoot cheap foster style slugs. And, welcome aboard!!....<><....

[Lon371]

 Welcome to Gray Beards.

 To bad you are so far south. I know a few fellers that would be glad to help.

 I agree with all the advice above.

Lonny

[quickdtoo]

Welcome! Best advice is to post an ad in the H&R Want to Buy classified forum to buy more barrels, but be aware modern 357 and 44 mag barrels aren't as light as the Model 58/158 which is likely what you have now, newer barrels have a much heavier contour. 

Tim

[Monteria]

Thank you for the warm welcome, and great suggestions.

It seems like you guys appreciate pictures, so here is a little pictorial review of the type scenario I am describing.

This is a pig in a bad spot. I am in the crevice behind it, holding its tail. My buddy, Mike is taking care of business. If, from the camera's angle, you wanted to shoot that pig between the eyeball and ear, without killing the dog behind it, what would you use?


This is the kind of thing that makes such situations an emergency. If I were by myself, without a gun, it would have taken for ever to subdue that hog and Brutus would not have gotten the required medical attention in time.


You can see what I mean by "short, dirty and fast".

For all of the stinkin animals it has killed, this is the only picture I can find of my 30-30. PS: That was her first fallow doe, not an albino.


Steve

[zackyholdem]

for the price of a 357 mag barrel or .44 barrel you might think about picking up a handi in .22 mag or even .17hmr, ammo is much cheaper than .357 and .44 and u said .22lr  is usually enough and both the .22 mag and .17hmr have around twice the muzzle energy of a .22lr and both would not over penetrate, and a new or used handi can be found in the $150-175 range.... just some food for thought

[jedman]

   I find single shot 410's under $75.00 quite often, but for a really light weight handi gun, The little H & R snake charmer or whatever they call it in 410 would work well.
   For short range pests ect, you can take a 410 shotshell open the crimp dump out the shot and put in either a 38 cal. lead bullet or a lead round ball from a muzzleloader push the crimp back closed with a dowel or ?
  Should have enough energy for your needs ?     Jed

[MSP Ret]

If it were me I would use a .38 Spl revolver loaded with +p+'s or even a .357 Mag revolver. I suggest hard cast Kieth design semi wadcutters with a gas check or a 158 grain half jacket soft point, not hollow points....<><.... 

[bikerbeans]

Steve,

At that range one of the 12 ga. "bang sticks" divers used on sharks would almost seem appropriate.  Not sure how one works out of the water though.  If I lived near you I would pay to go on one of you pig hunts, looks like a great way to spend the evening!

BB  

[cwlongshot]

Steve,

At that range one of the 12 ga. "bang sticks" divers used on sharks would almost seem appropriate.  Not sure how one works out of the water though.  If I lived near you I would pay to go on one of you pig hunts, looks like a great way to spend the evening!

BB  

LOL I was thinking the same thing!!!  Truth be told, ANYTHING would be dangerous in such a situation. Brings to mind the question, Why get in that situation in the first place???

I mean why not Just shoot the hogs after pulling the dogs off. At least most of them. I know the dogs keep the hog occupied and fewer would or could be more dangerous for the dogs as well. But you jumping into the mide of that foray.... Just gotta ask why? I'm not condeming their use, but choosing that time to shoot them, it's a recipe for a problem, for the dog I mean.

CW

CW

[Monteria]

 
LOL I was thinking the same thing!!!  Truth be told, ANYTHING would be dangerous in such a situation. Brings to mind the question, Why get in that situation in the first place???

I mean why not Just shoot the hogs after pulling the dogs off. At least most of them. I know the dogs keep the hog occupied and fewer would or could be more dangerous for the dogs as well. But you jumping into the mide of that foray.... Just gotta ask why? I'm not condeming their use, but choosing that time to shoot them, it's a recipe for a problem, for the dog I mean.

CW

CW

Unfortunately, its not that easy. This isn't like coon or cat hunting, where you can tie the dogs back before shooting the treed quarry. These dogs live to catch pigs. I don't train them, it is just what they do instinctively. If they escape the kennels you can bet they will be found baying a hog, and they ain't ever going to give up, or be called out.

Much to your point though, there is a great deal of precision involved. Not necessarily from the rifle, but from the shooter. You better have nerves of steel, proficiency with your chosen weapon and damn good timing in that situation. That is why I want a niche rifle, for only this purpose, and don't take the decision lightly.

Remember also though, this is for EMERGENCY use only. I might only HAVE to use it 3 to 6 times a year compared to hundreds of hogs caught without incident. I certainly have no intention of endangering my dogs by shooting unless that option is the lesser of two evils.

I did kind of lie though, I have carried a gun before... Only when my catch dogs were all in heat, or on medical leave, do I go bay-and-shoot style. This is not my preferred method though and I hardly ever do it.

In a bay and shoot scenario you would run looser baying dogs, and only 2 of them, in order to minimize variables. I shot these two over 2 bay dogs with a .22 rifle. The toothy critter was pretty rank and hunkered down in white brush. It took me a while to get the perfect shot at a range of approx 5 feet. One in the eye and that was it. The smaller one was no big deal. He bayed backed up to a large mesquite. So I just walked up, put the muzzle on his forehead and lights out. Again though, that is a much more controlled situation by design. A .22LR would NOT be the preferred medicine in an emergency situation.


Incidentally, thanks to your advice, I now have a listing in WTB for either a 357 or 22 Hornet BBL. I cant decide which would be better, so I'll take which ever is available.

Steve

[gcrank1]

Not having your experience in this, but from your explainations and imagining the scenario, I think I would opt for a cut to legal min. .410 stoked with the little slug load. Up close and personal it will do quite a job and you are looking at point and pull, not precision 50yd. groups anyway.
And you can carry some shot loads for 'potting' small game or birds in your other pocket.

[Monteria]

After almost a full day, focused on this one task, I just sourced a mint 357BBL!

It is a newer, heavy BBL and the day it gets here, it goes on the lathe. I see the "Shorties" are pretty popular on GBO... But, is there any chance that I will be the first person with a "Shorty Ultra Light"? 

And yes, I will post pics of the finished product.

Thanks for all of your help,

Steve

[blind ear]

Monteria, a toast to you and all the guy's still young enough and agile enough to still play jump rope with a Hog. I would opt for a pistol except for the chance of shooting myself in the foot. ear

[Hit or Miss]

Make sure to post pics of that bad boy when you get it built!  You definately have some stones!  I've seen what farm pigs can do to a guy and that makes me stay clear of 'em!

[Jimbo47]

Monteria, that .357 will do the trick!

Having lived in south Texas all my life I understand what your talking about with the hogs, dogs, and close quarters.   It's the type of terrain that we have down here also that makes it necessary to get in close with dogs as the brush can be so thick you can be standing within feet of a hog and not see them.   

Hear them and smell them yes, but it takes someone with a little intestinal fortitude and maybe a touch of insanity to get in close with a hog and it's not for everyone that's for sure.

My preferred method is off in the distance watching over a field and picking them off at range, but that's another scenario.

Post us some picks of your rig when you get er done!

[petemi]

If ya wanna talk about close range, I hunted them in Florida palmetoes.  I'd have to guess most shots were within 5 yards.  Also, I'd run into them bird hunting with just one dog.....it was shoot now or goodbye doggie.  I had the same situation shooting watering doves late in the afternoon over a pond.  A gator almost got the retriever, if I couldn't have snapped off a shot he'd have had the dog.

I don't miss wadeing around with gators or snakes and dodging rattlers in the brush.  I would like to have hogs to hunt though.  Here, anything dangerous is large and obvious.

Pete

[Land_Owner]

Talking hogs and Handi's at the same time.  My kind of language.  I am betting that 357 bbl, cut down, and loaded to REDUCED or near-normal 38 Spc is nearer the ticket.  You will have to experiment some though.  Your "angle of attack" with a reduced load could ricochet off the skull if the shot placement is not steep enough (in an emergency situation) leaving a bad headache and an enraged pig.  Anything "hot" like +P, or full 357 Mag might shoot through the other side, which is just as bad for you and the dogs.

I have been working with 38 Spc cases, 0.358" x 180 grain SWC smelted lead boolets, and 700X powder.  The shorter case, longer boolet, small charge, and fast burning powder combination work very well together for a near sub-sonic load with reduced recoil and reduced report.  To 50 yards, which you won't be shooting anyway, some of the boolets are already tumbling and key-holing, but there is adequate punch for a behind the ear, lights out, she-bang.

[Rustyinfla]

  Awe come on Pete the snakes aren't that bad. My son does his close in hog huntin with a Kabar.

[45-70.gov]

how about a spear

i  would use  my 357 carry gun....2 inch centinial smith  640
with  125 hp...to  avoid overpenetration

if i was set on a rifle....i would just buy a new 357 whole gun
they are fairly cheap...and cut it  to 16 inches
they come scope ready....just incase you DID  need precision at a little distance
that  option  is there.....maybe a red dot  is best when things are fast and furious

your current gun has  too  much family history for this sort of abuse...it is priceless