Author Topic: Neck-sizing only for 458 Win and 45-70? (Read 2977 times)

tacotime · « **on:** January 05, 2011, 10:05:46 AM »

I was late getting the info that neck-sizing only should be better to preserve my brass.

Is anyone neck sizing only their 458 or 45-70?

I don't even see a neck sizing die for 458 on Midway, and 45-70 choices are limited. Is neck-sizing uncommon on straight walled cases?

Thanks.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2011, 01:12:41 PM »

Well, considering the .458, 45/70 etc., having a neck is questionable in the first place, why not.

AS per neck sizing dies, seldom are they needed even in bottle neck cartridges.

So on the strieght wall cases, just back that sizing die off most of the way, and providing there are no chambering issues - and they may take a few firing to show up - go for it.

On the bottle neck cartridges, even with a "full length" sizing die, for the best brass life, reload consistancy etc. ALWAYS size to the very minimum that will allow for smooth chambering of your loads.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

tacotime · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2011, 03:51:52 AM »

I did do some partial sizing, not too well apparently because once I went to seat some bullets, maybe 5 out of 30, they were finger loose in the case. I had to pull, dump, resize further carefully, reload, reseat.

I do use a Lee factory crimp die at the end, but the fact that the bullet was not well seated to begin with bugged me, causing the do-overs.

Is there a safety issue with a bullet that is barely seated assuming it stays in position? (ignoring the accuracy and consistency issues).

The inconsistency in sizing from case to case came from running the ram offhand without backing out the die. I wonder if the slight sizing variations in the cases now will render this batch of rounds inconsistent in performance?

Can a factory crimp die fully eliminate any problems of a loose seating? (I kind of doubt it.)

Thanks.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2011, 06:59:24 AM »

Yep, inconsistancy! Probabaly not a safety issue as long as the boolit stays in place long enough to be fired, inconsistant for sure.

If you don't want to adjust your seating/crimping die, get yourself a batch of 7/8 washers and use them to shim the die setting until you decide what you want.

As per the Lee "factory crimp die" well use it if it is needed, otherwise leave it in the box. NOT needed!

Some folk are very sure that a fourth die in the loading/seating operation is a positive thing. Well, maybe depending on what you are hoping to gain.

But for most all loading operations, a three set die for cases such as the 45/70, from a good maker, will be all you need.

I have used the Lee die in loading for the 40S&W and 45ACP, but for other rounds like the .38/357 .44 etc. it is for the most part an un-needed 4th thing to fiddle with.

Just IMHO!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

tacotime · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2011, 07:59:10 AM »

I plan to back the die out next time for an consistent sized area just to grip the new bullet.

So far, no chambering issues in the Ruger 1 and 3.

I kind of like the factory crimper just to make sure the crimps are uniform and firm, not heavy.

I think I have fixed the current loose seated rounds for this batch, but I'll test the batch this weekend and watch for inconsistency. Working through H4895 reduced loads looking for consistency without filler.

Mainly looking for a 405 gr. jacketed round in both 45-70 and 458 Win that are mild, accurate, consistent and maybe around 1400 to 1600fps. Just about to explore H4895, 49-51 grains for 45-70 and and in 458, 57-61 grains, though these look to be a little above that speed. That stuff seems to burn a little on the dirty side, maybe because I had even further reduced loads before these. Mag primer in the .458.

Thanks!

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2011, 02:41:29 PM »

I neck size my 45-70 with the sizing die out of my Lee Classic loader. It neck sizes only.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2011, 03:10:43 PM »

Just a thought Tacotime,

With a single shot such as the RUGER #1 or #3, there is really no need to crimp the bullet. Providing of course you have reasonable neck tention on your case.

On a magizine rifle of some type, chrimping would quite possibly be needed, but not on a single shot.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

mauserand9mm · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2011, 11:12:26 PM »

I do set up FLS dies to match my rifle chambers (ie minimal FLS) for those with bottleneck cases, but I haven't done this for my 458. They stretch very little and only need to be trimmed every few shots. In my experience case life on the big bores is exceptional. My 375 and 458 cases will last 20+ reloads before the neck finally cracks.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** January 09, 2011, 01:37:52 AM »

i guess i look at it like this. Most staight wall cases fail first in the neck area anyway and i doubt neck sizing is going to prolong your case life that much in one.

MePlat · « **Reply #9 on:** January 09, 2011, 03:05:48 AM »

I load for both. In a single shot gun I size the case down to probably a quarter inch from the shell holder on the 458 and maybe slightly more on the 45/70. In my BFR revolver and the Marlin 45/70 I full length resize.
Where most of the problems are on those two cases are case mouth splits (as Mr. Smale said). Annealing them will take care of that.
To really help just flare the mouth just enough to let the desired bullet be seated without shaving the bullet sides and just turn the flare back in to straight on single shots. With the BFR I roll crimp but one doesn't need a heavy roll crimp then with a bullet of 520 grains weight (even at 1450 fps).
The Marlin due to bullet design uses a taper type crimp on the 550 grain bullet.
If you roll crimp in a single shot (why you would is beyond me) go ahead and anneal your cases first to soften the mouth.
Then anneal maybe every 5 or 6 loadings.
Then have at it.

tacotime · « **Reply #10 on:** January 09, 2011, 07:24:03 AM »

Went to the range and found a number more of the rounds with bullets not seated well. Many were finger loose. Had to scratch the session. I'll have to pull these and resize carefully and reload.

I suppose after reading here, that the seating when full length sized was adequate without the factory crimp die, so I'll skip the FCD for the Ruger 1 and see how the consistency goes, after I get the sizing die set right and consistent to take the manual variation out of the operation.

I have never annealed cases - is there a short and sweet skinny on this operation?

Thanks.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #11 on:** January 09, 2011, 08:00:42 AM »

Tacotime,

I've reloaded since the 60s, but have never annealed any cases. Have thought about it, but just never got there.

Hornady did, and maybe still does have a system which included some heat sensitive markers to use on the brass, which assures proper heat.

Will be watching the answers to your question.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

MePlat · « **Reply #12 on:** January 09, 2011, 11:38:43 AM »

Get in a room with low light. Hold the cases by the case head. Use a propane torch and heat while turning the case until the case mouths get a dull red or they become too hot to hold and then drop them in some water.
Or, Stand them in about an inch of water in a flat pan and then heat the mouths till dull red and tip them over.
The reason for low lighting is so you can see the dull red more easily. Don't want to turn them red so it is easy to see in a well lit room.
Put in the oven at maybe 200 degrees until dry.
Are your bullets sized to .460" My guns like that diameter so well I don't use any other size diameter.
I have never had bullets that were loose in the case. Have you checked your size die for correct diameter?

tacotime · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2011, 08:20:17 AM »

I pulled, resized and recharged any that were loose seated, and the new seatings can not be moved by hand. I did back out the sizing die a good bit and there was resistance on those cases that were loose, so my previous manual variation in the sizing stroke showed up I guess. I'll test consistency on the range this weekend.

For crimping, the 405 grain in the .458 WM wasn't really crimped other than any pressure applied by the seating die, and these were not seated on a cannelure anyway. The 45-70 is crimping slightly in the cannelure on the 350 grain Hornady. After reading here, maybe I'll elimimate that crimp. Factory crimp die not used this time. I did notice the 405 grain REM bullets were showing .455 on my electronic caliper, not .458. Not sure if it was the caliper off there. But now that I think of it, maybe only the 405's were loose and not the 350's. I'll measure the 350's when I get home to see if they are .458.

I've since read about as many pros as cons on annealing. Maybe I'll run this set of brass without it to see how long it lasts and re-evaluate then...

Thanks!

MePlat · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2011, 08:46:30 AM »

tacotime
I don't know whether you will see this post or not but in case you do.
You will find pros and cons on everything. From cancer treatment to what underwear to buy but I will say this if you ever get into loading a wildcat that is difficult to make brass for or into a caliber that brass is not plentiful for annealing will help with keeping that brass running for a time to come.
One way to find out is to select maybe 5 or 6 cases and anneal then and test then against cases that are not annealed.
I think you will be a proponent of the annealing process.
Remember that annealing, like everything else, can be overdone or not done enough.
With minimum flaring of the cases and no crimp or minimal crimp your cases will last a long time without annealing.
If you shoot very little cases will last a long time too no matter what you do to the cases.
It is up to you want to believe.

tacotime · « **Reply #15 on:** January 11, 2011, 10:46:18 AM »

Good idea. No reason not to anneal a test set and see how they perform against the others. That .458 brass is not cheap. Thanks.

tacotime · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2011, 03:49:05 AM »

The last set was neck sized only done uniformly with the backed-out sizing die, the built-in crimp from that die was reduced, and the factory crimp die not used. Bullets were firmly seated and the 45-70, 350 jacketed batch showed good accuracy with 4 different powders (4198, 4064, Rel7, H4895, best was 4064). I am crediting the uniform neck sizing and minimal crimp (these are both single shot rifles). However the results may be tainted a bit because I removed the barrel band from the Ruger 3 and some say that makes a difference in accuracy. I think I'll test next with and without the band to prove it all up.

The 458WM using the above method showed slightly improved accuracy with the 405 jacketed.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2011, 08:51:09 AM »

Tacotime,

First off, I AM a RUGER#1 lover, but on a #3, ONLY if it had been changed over to #1 wood.

Way toooooo much recoil potential with the 45/70 for that type of butt stock - Waaaaaaay too much drop!

Anyway, glass bed the forend where the forend screw goes into the underbarrel hanger, and below the ejector screw/spring retaining lug and a third spot on the other side of the forend, then float the barrel and do away with the barrel band, forever!

Keep em coming!

CDOC

tacotime · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2011, 09:35:09 AM »

I have heard many complaints about the #3 recoil, but funny, I have not really had a problem with the #3 recoil in 45-70 as much as the #1 in 45-70 pounded me using the factory Win 300 gr SP. That redbutt pad is just a small hard piece of rubber. With a slip-on over the #3 crescent plate, it hasn't bothered me. Of course, I stay below 1600fps usually while the 300gr is rated at 1880 fps. I also use a #3 that had the butt stock cut off flat just ahead of the oval inlet space on the top of the stock plus a 3/4 inch Pachmayr added and a trimmed down forearm. Gun is very light. LOP is about an inch short of standard. It has not bothered me much either.

The barrel band is history. I have never glass bedded but I'm going to learn... do you have a favorite product brand/type?

Also, I have some cast 350, 405 and 500 gr that I'd like to use in the 45-70 and 458WM. I'd like to stay mild, under 1600fps. Any ideas?

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2011, 10:16:35 AM »

Tacotime,

I put a new, read soft and thick, recoil pad on my #1 before I ever shot it!

However, I tried to shoot it with the iron sights and I wondered what I had gotten into and If I was man enough to shoot this 45/70 lots of people were sing'in the praises of.

It flat out really hurt!!!!!!!!! to shoot it with the 405RCBS ( about 425gr) at about 1600fps.

Totally it was head position, thanks goodness!

As soon as the scope was mounted, the higher head position totally took the hurt away. THANK Goodess!!!

Since then, I have shot those same loads with NO problem, and 355gr boolits up to 2500fps. Does the light rifle come back? Yes, but no pain or strain!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Time on the bench is with a sissy bag, filled with lead shot, which the wife made me and off hand or seated, no problem.

I use The Brownell's Acraglas for bedding. The liquid - red & blue boxes - and not the jell type.

Maybe a bit more messy, but I like the results. Have used it for close to 40 years.

Just, and I cannot stress this enough, have your ducks in a row BEFORE starting the process OR YOU WILL BE SORRY!

If your interested, send me a PM and I will detail the process and pit falls to you.

I have also sent out a CD showing what the end result looked like. Sorry, challanged as to sending out images on the net, so I just find a CD works for me.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

tacotime · « **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2011, 04:05:21 AM »

Thanks. Good advice. I may need to call on your glass bedding experience, but let me see how this guy shoots now.

I since pulled the original front stock off and replaced it with another factory stock, cut off flat at the break where the barrel band starts, and appropriately sanded and finished. The fit to the action seems snug. But also, I replaced the original rear stock with one cut off just ahead of the butt plate notch on the top of the stock, and added a 3/4 inch pad. I'll see how the accuracy is affected by these two changes.

tacotime · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2011, 04:45:29 AM »

Update 1-24-11... shoots very well with 350s and a cloverleaf with 300s at 50 yards. Couldn't test longer ranges due to high wind.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2011, 07:03:57 AM »

Haven't put any of mine on the paper at 50yds.

Always figure I want to know what happens at 100yds and beyond so haven't tried the shorter distance.

Starting to look forward to getting to Spokane, Wa. or Lewiston, Ideeeeeeeho and pick'in up some H322 for some more 45/70 tests.

I may also need to drop down a bit in velocity to get the groups I want. Hope not!!!!!

Keep em coming!

CDOC

tacotime · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2011, 04:05:33 AM »

I think I kind of like the intial testing at 50 yards, because it feels like it seems to eliminate a little more of the shooters error in the mix, then once some good loads are identified, I'll move out to 100 and further to prove them out. One of these guns has an older 4x scope, and it seems a lot easier to shoot well with it at 50.

I just picked up a chrono, so this weekend there will be no more guessing about the speeds on these loads.

I'm working in the mid-range. Right now, speed per the books, the 300gr shoots well at 1600 and the 350 fairly well at 1500. 350 losd needs work though.

Still working up to a good group on the 458WM. Looking for the lowest speed for a 405gr with a fine group. Calculated the last H4895 load around 1800, fair, not great. Going up a little more this weekend, and using a chrono for the first time. Any ideas?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2011, 05:06:48 AM »

TT, for cast bullets you would be hard pressed to find a more useful reference than Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook.
The IMR 3030 and IMR4227 loads work well in the 45-70 with cast plain base of WWts up to about max 1450ish, after that you probably want a gas check. I use .458s in one and the other takes .459 in unsized fully fire-formed cases. My key indicator for FL resizing is when the cases get 'sticky' for chambering or extraction/ejection. If I have been upping a load and it gets that way often I can back off the load and be in the happy zone again. A lot of die sets resize necks too far down for good lead bullet fit; that is, they make a jacketed bullet fit nice and tight but they squeeze a lead bullet too much for best accuracy. Sometimes a replacement (slightly larger dia. expander ball) is available. Problem is you really need to clean the bore of lead or of copper before switching one to the other. I always shoot just lead anyway, so no worries.