Author Topic: 1911 - Red Dot Mounting (Read 4573 times)

bikerbeans · « **on:** June 02, 2010, 12:21:36 PM »

Hi All,

I have a Taurus 1911 and the front and rear sights are dovetailed. I have an interest in putting either a red dot or pistol scope on this gun for deer season. I don't want to have the slide modified for a scope rail and I don't like the frame mounted scope mounts at all. I have been thinking of getting a pair of 1" scope rings that have the male dovetail on the bottom. The rings would be 7" apart, center to center, so it would limit they type of red dot or scope I could use. Just curious if anyone has tried this and how it worked for them.

thanks

BB

skarke · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2010, 04:00:44 AM »

Mounting to the slide is BRUTAL on optics, but can be done. You'll have timing issues, likely need to change your spring, and I wouldn't count on great consistency.

Curious, if you need an optical sight on a 1911, why not frame mount?

bikerbeans · « **Reply #2 on:** June 03, 2010, 08:23:54 AM »

Skarke,

The frame mounts usually get in the way of an ambi. safety and they change the feel of the gun as you lose the right grip. I don't like the look either but that's just me.

The majority of the older Bullseye shooters use a red dot style sight, w/o magnification. All the ones I have seen are slide mounted, but it takes some machine work and D/T to the slide, which I want to avoid. Of course the recoil of a Bullseye round is very mild as these guys shoot some very slow rounds.

I have just about every Wolff recoil spring, plus a Sprinco guide rod with secondary spring. Also have a compensator so I should be able to modify by 1911 to account for the weight of the red dot. (I am however going to try this with a used Red Dot that I got for $20 so if it destructs then I am not out much) That's the beauty of the 1911, it is very quick and easy to tune it for whatever round you feel like shooting. On the low end, I shoot 200 grain LSWC w/ 3.5 grains of 700X and on the high end Jacketed 230 grain Factory 45 Super. Just got to make sure you setup the gun correctly for what you are shooting.

BB

Bigeasy · « **Reply #3 on:** June 03, 2010, 09:22:16 AM »

Mount a small holographic red dot site like the Burris Fastfire ll, or the new Leupold version right into the dove tail slot on the slide. Both sights are available with this style mount. I have the Burris on my RIA 1911, and it works fine with regular hardball. The sight weighs about 1 ounce.

Larry

skarke · « **Reply #4 on:** June 03, 2010, 02:49:46 PM »

+1 Bigeasy.

That said, depending on what u want to spend, a frame mount can be had to accommodate virtually anything. I,m a lefty too

I. Going to put a Fastfire on a ruger MIII, but I'm still recovering from the injuries my wife put on my hind end after my last purchase.

Let me know how your project works.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #5 on:** June 03, 2010, 03:01:35 PM »

I like that Burris FastFire and also the Bushnell Gen II Holo, there is one on my wife's M4. Not sure if I want to layout $200 to $250 for what would probably be my third in line deer gun. Would like to take one with a handgun, but only after there are backstraps in the freezer.

I would misappropriate the wife's holosight but I don't heal that fast anymore. I think I will try the dovetail rings with my existing red dot and see what happens. Maybe wear a helmet for the first 50 rounds?

BB

rbwillnj · « **Reply #6 on:** June 07, 2010, 04:56:13 AM »

Skarke,

Slide mounts are by far the most common mounting system used by Bullseye shooters for red dot scopes, and are generally regarded as more accurate mounting system than frame mounts. Ultradot is the most common of the red dots used by Bullseye shooters, and they have a great reputation for holding up to the service.....which usually means 10K to 30K rounds of target ammunition per year. Frame mounts work well also, but are less common in Bullseye but very common in IPSIC, they do make it harder to clean the gun.

My Bullseye gun probably has in excess of 60,000 rounds through it, and the scope mount and Ultradot are holding up fine. The gun holds 2 inches at 50 yards from a rest.

Bikerbeans,
You might want to consider a grip mount. It replaces the grip panel on one side and adds a scope rail. These are rarely seen in competitive shooting, but would should meet your needs, and can be easily installed and removed without modifying the gun.

skarke · « **Reply #7 on:** June 07, 2010, 05:47:06 AM »

RB,

Thanks, cool looking rig. I have seen people do it, but I don't shoot bullseye, and honestly, am pretty new to pistol shooting in general.

I have shot airguns in the past, and base some of my concern about optics durability on experiece with these guns. The positive and negative Gs on airguns rip scopes to shreds that aren't designed to take the punishment. I blew up two airgun rated scopes (both fixed under warranty) with a powerful beeman.

If fact, I'd like a little advice, not to hijack the forum, on red dot vs holo sight for a Mark III. I'm not concerned about recoil on a 22, but I'd like to know what people seem to prefer.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2010, 02:54:39 AM »

I guess im with sharke on this. Ive just seen to many reliablility issures with optics mounted on a slide. Especially if your running lighter loads like you would in bullseye shooting. Problem that seems to crop up is you need to use such a light spring with all that weight that slides dont tend to want to go back into battery. Now you may get away with it on a 3ooo dollar comp gun set up for it but to just put one on a out of the box colt or kimber I think id go with a frame mount. that and unless your going to buck up at least 200 dollars for a quality reddot its going to be in pieces soon mounted on a slide.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2010, 11:02:35 AM »

Lloyd,

You should go to Camp Perry some day for the the Conventional Pistol (Bullseye) National Championships. You will find that for the .45 Stage, about 80-90% of the competitors use slide mounted red dots. Probably close to 90% of those shooters use UltraDots. UltraDots start at about $120 including shipping and go up to about $180 for a four dot version. They all come with a Lifetime Warranty to the original purchaser. I have never had a problem with mine.

I find that in my 45 Bullseye gun with a slide mounted Ultradot, I get the best accuracy with 4.1 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain cast semi-wadcutter. I use a 12 lb spring. Never had a problem with lockup.

Bruce

bubbinator · « **Reply #10 on:** June 09, 2010, 09:25:27 PM »

I have an scvector.biz mini red dot that is product sold at Gun Shows by www. LG Outdoors.com. It is very much like the Doktor/Burris/ item being marketed for $200.+. I bought one shot it for while with very good results. After an extended period of inactivity it started shooting 3" left/ without correction. LG replaced it w/o question (I had my paperwork/and was local). I would suggest, given what they profess by action-do this: Buy a grip mount Weaver Base for the 1911 (40 Bucks) Buy a SCRD10 from LG ($75-90) at Gunshow or on line-They may bargain, and try it. My new one is back one my pistol and works fine. Not a lot invested/ lots too learn/enjoy.

skarke · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2010, 03:41:34 AM »

I just ran across a Redhead Ret Dot 42mm from Bass Pro yesterday. It looks pretty cool, and for $50, might do the trick. I mounted it in the middle between the front and rear sights, the thing looks like it is about 4.5 inches long.

I'll try it out this weekend. The diameter of the tube coupled with the shortness produces a comet like effect when the dot is on the far left of the view, kind of spraying the dot across the glass. In the middle though, it's pretty good, certainly decent for the price paid.

It looks like there are several brand names applied to the side of this scope, and they all cost between 40 and 60 bucks.

Remember, this is for a Mark III, and I am truly sorry for the minor hijack. I can guarantee that this heavy thing wouldn't work on a 1911.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:50:13 PM »

I dont doubt your right but i would also have to guess that those arent out of the box 1911s. Theyve been tuned to run with an optic on the slide. Ive never used an ultradot but have heard good things about them. Why do you feel its a superior setup to a frame mount? Seems to me that less weight on the slide is going to increase reliability and decrease recoil.

Quote from: rbwillnj on June 08, 2010, 11:02:35 AM

Lloyd,

You should go to Camp Perry some day for the the Conventional Pistol (Bullseye) National Championships. You will find that for the .45 Stage, about 80-90% of the competitors use slide mounted red dots. Probably close to 90% of those shooters use UltraDots. UltraDots start at about $120 including shipping and go up to about $180 for a four dot version. They all come with a Lifetime Warranty to the original purchaser. I have never had a problem with mine.

I find that in my 45 Bullseye gun with a slide mounted Ultradot, I get the best accuracy with 4.1 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain cast semi-wadcutter. I use a 12 lb spring. Never had a problem with lockup.

Bruce

bikerbeans · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2010, 01:08:33 PM »

Lloyd,

I asked my Bullseye shooting friend about the slide mounted red dot and the prevailing wisdom it is more accurate. You are right that the serious Bullseye guns going to competent Gunsmiths and are modified for the purpose. I don't want to give out my buddies load but let's just say it is well below the starting load for 700X and a 200 grain LWSC. This loading cycles his gun with slide mounted red dot just fine. I do not know what recoil spring he has in his gun. This same round will have about 25% jams in my 1911 with the stock spring.

BB

rbwillnj · « **Reply #14 on:** June 10, 2010, 08:07:48 PM »

Lloyd,

First of all, I think the difference is small...if any. I have both, and they both shoot very well. The prevailing thought is that a frame mount optic shoots where the frame is pointing, and a slide mount optic shoots where the slide is pointing. Since the barrel locks up in the slide, the slide mount optic shoots where the barrel is pointing. If there is some play between the slide and frame, the slide mount optic is going to be more accurate. Most bullseye guns have very little play between slide and frame, so it really shouldn't make a difference.

However, as I stated earlier, it's easier to clean a gun with a slide mounted optic than a frame mounted optic because the bridge gets in the way of cleaning the frame.

Bigeasy · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2010, 09:23:23 PM »

If you end up going the red dot route instead of a holo sight, then another vote for the ultra dot sight. My Redhawk has god knows how many heavy loads thru it over the past 25 years, and the Ultra Dot has never failed. They also don't cost an arm and a leg.

Larry

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2010, 02:21:15 AM »

thanks guys! your never to old to learn.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2010, 04:20:27 AM »

I think my Bullseye shooting friend just bought a new Ultra Dot, time to call and see what happened to the old one!

I think I am going to watch my first Bullseye meet on Father's Day. Amhearst, Ohio or thereabouts is the shoot. My friend wants me to shoot also, that would be interesting since 99% of my pistol shooting is defense related, center of mass and shoot NOW! Anybody ever get a 0 on a 900 point round? I could be the first!

BB

carlstaff · « **Reply #18 on:** January 11, 2011, 11:10:20 AM »

I'm wondering if you found a solution for your Taurus 1911? I also have an PT1911 SS. The PT1911 and an Ultradot L/T are at my gunsmith now where he is fabricating a short mount for the L/T that will go into the rear Novak sight cut on the slide. This is my third Ultradot, but the first one to be mounted on a 1911. I find it amazing that Ultradot and DocterUSA do not have some type of quick mounting kit for this application. They both depend upon the gunsmith to fabricate something. Hello marketing?

bikerbeans · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2011, 06:06:25 AM »

carlstaff,

I found a solution for the 1911 but not the one I was looking for.

My wife discovered the 3 gun shoots last summer and my 1911 now is HER gun for these competitions. No need for the red dot, but I did put a bushing compensator on the gun and I load very light cast lead for her to just about eliminate the muzzle jump. The 3 gun shoots around here are a little loose on the rules so a low velocity/compensated autoloader isn't a problem.

BB

carlstaff · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:46:58 PM »

I finally found a solution for my Taurus PT1911 and I've put together a page on how it was completed on one of my websites. I did read in an earlier comment that mounting on the slide was brutal, but I spent a great deal of time in several Bullseye forums and didn't find many complaints about doing it that way. SVI currently builds an IMM gun with a Docter sight mounted on the slide. I took the plunge and did have an Ultradot L/T mounted on the slide and have been through my first steel challenge match with it and it didn't break. If it will break eventually is unknown at this point, but I'm going to continue to shoot it until it does. So far, 500 rounds and still going strong. What I like about the Ultradot L/T is that I don't have to turn it off and on during matches. The L/T switches off when you put the hard plastic cover over it. I'm currently experimenting with different loads in an effort to find a lighter load for this gun to smooth out the slide. I did not have to change springs and in fact went to a 12 lb. with no adverse effects. This page URL has several pictures than can be magnified or blown up into high resolution pictures. http://www.planet2go2.com/1911/1911.html

rbwillnj · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2011, 03:57:27 PM »

If a Slide Mount Red Dot is good enough for Brian Zins, it's good enough for me. He is the 10 time national champion in Bullseye. You know him as Gunny on this years Top Shot.

http://www.brianzins.com/signature-series-pistol/