40 S&W and 45 acp dual purpose

[jamaldog87]

 well everyone at work knows me as the "gun guy" so there always asking me about stuff. Well one of the guys there was looking at getting a glock 22 or 23 or a 45acp for a dual purpose human and  animal-defense gun. He hunts in black bear and cougar controy and he wanted something that could be used as a CCW and animl gun.


in field and stream they had something about outdoor defense guns and the 45acp was listed as a good person and anti-cougar gun(with 230gr hydra shock or 185gr golden saber.) But the glock was alos said to be good with 180gr XTP rounds on light skin animals.

 i readied in glock magzine "it happen to me" were a worker at a zoo had to kill a 300 pound black bear and he used a glock 23. It too 6 shot to drop the chargering  animal.

he does not want a 6 shooter or a 10mm, he wants a auto in 45 or 40 S&W.

[jimster]

He hunts in bear and couger country?  hmmmmm

Well, his mind is made up I guess there is no sense in suggesting anything except possibly saving the last round for himself, and a hollow point would be fine for that.   

[Empty Quiver]

Same same, when it's all said and done. Bullet choice will make more of a difference than calibre. The 40 was designed to deliver the same energy as a 45. Might lean towards a 40 simply because of capacity.

[jimster]

I agree with the bullet choice.  Makes a lot of difference.  Where there is black bear I personally would not choose a hollow point myself, but there are other opinions.  I have heard of people loading cast bullets in their .45 acp for hunting.  I think with those calibers I would find the heaviest bullet that would function. If you find ammo that will penetrate a black bear enough you could use it on a cougar too.

I'm thinking he already probably has a rifle with him if he's hunting, that would be my first choice if there was enough time.

[jamaldog87]

Buffalo Bore ammo should help right? yes, he hunts with a 30/06 and he will not tell me were he hunts(he just says up north). I know the 45acp make a good hog hunting gun. I would go with the glock  if it was me becuase you get a lot of ammo  and i know couger have been killed with less.  The 357 mag(3-4''inch) to me would be the best pick for this but he wants a auto.  I will tell him to get a 10mm glock 20 or 29, if he don't want that then he can leave me be.  Now if he asked for a gun for he in FL both would do.

[Spirithawk]

If I were hunting bear in cougar country I think my choice would be very simple...a .44 mag! I might settle for a .357 simply because I shoot one pretty well.  I'd rather kill a charging animal with one shot rather than several!

[Empty Quiver]

Buffalo Bore ammo should help right? yes, he hunts with a 30/06 and he will not tell me were he hunts(he just says up north). I know the 45acp make a good hog hunting gun. I would go with the glock  if it was me becuase you get a lot of ammo  and i know couger have been killed with less.  The 357 mag(3-4''inch) to me would be the best pick for this but he wants a auto.  I will tell him to get a 10mm glock 20 or 29, if he don't want that then he can leave me be.  Now if he asked for a gun for he in FL both would do.

That 10mm would be your best advice. Might mention that a S&W40 barrel can be purchased for shooting cheap ammo.

[highwayman]

is he planning on dropping the 30-06 and pulling out his pistol?!? go with the 45cal, bigger hole and proving all over the world.

[jamaldog87]

I saw him at work and i told him to get a glock 29 and leave me alone.  It's small, powerful, 10mm ammo can be loaded to 41mag power, and it's a glock.

He still wants something smaller so i give up

[Pat/Rick]

Woods time varies for me, sometimes I'll carry my 4" GP-100 .357, others I'll carry my G-23 in .40. When I carry my Glock in the woods I use FMJ, figuring penetration would be better than expansion on bear. Have bear and cougar very close to the house at any given time anyway. Bear and cougar are the big predators here, but then I always have a long gun in the woods as well. Bear got a neighbors cow and her calf about four years ago now. They didn't get the bear but lost two head of beef.

[mcwoodduck]

I think he should look at a 357 Mag.
3-4" K frame would work well for self defense from 2 and 4 legged animals.
Just change up the ammo.  125 grain SJHP for walking around the streets and 158 grain JSP, 180 grain Soft points or Full lead 357 Mag loads for the woods.
While the revolvers are not sexy they do work well for multi purpose over the self protection.
Not to mention the different power levels for the gun from 38Spl target, 38 Spl+P, 38 Special +P+, low recoil 357 mag, 357 Mag and then hunting loads. that will give you the full range from Paper to small game to big game.
Changing loads is just a speed loader away.
I regret selling a S&W M65 3" that I had for years that would be a perfect combination gun for wondering around in the streets and the woods.

[jamaldog87]

well last night i looked at some of the books i have for info on this. In the modern American centerfire handguns it stated that  a 1000FPS 185gr 45acp  HP for close range work on bear or boar can not be beat.

In guns illustrated 1995  chuck karwan did a thing about the then new glock 20.  He saids 10mm ammo can = or do better then a 357mag 125gr round with the most effect rounds being JHP(for humans) 155,150 and 135gr at 1300FPS.  It also makes a good emergency close range encounter weapons for bears,large cats, feral dogs, and wild bovines. He said it has a strong following in places like Alaska and Montana were cops and people run into large animals and crazy people all the time.

Cost/ammo being what i go by the 357 wins but, if i had the cash for both i would get the 10mm because it has the power of the 41mag(Winchester's Super-X Silvertip 175gr rounds) and with the glock you get 10-15 rounds. Sometimes you need lots of ammo

[Brett]

Well,  if my choice is limited to .40 S&W or .45 ACP I think I would go with the .40 just for the simple fact that I would have more rounds on tap.  With the appropriate bullets for each they are about equal in stopping power.   If I had a large, angry animal charging at me intent on eating me I'm not sure how well I would be able to place my shots so more ammo means more chances to score a solid hit... or two... or three.       If you can stay cool calm and collected and call your shots while  several hundred pounds of teeth and claws is bearing down on you more power to you.

[mcwoodduck]

A bullet in the right place does wonders.  I have carried a 9mm with me in the woods but that was more cause I did not want to leave it in my truck parked at the barn.  I had no illusions of it stopping a big black bear.
I own many different guns, in many different calibers and while many work for personal protection.
There was a 650 pound black bear taken near our farm not too many years ago in NC.  Think of a black shaggy VW Bug and you have an idea.  When i was in college I would drive my Jeep to the farm.  There were these cuts in the corn that were wide enough for me to drive the Cherokee in and not hit the mirrors.  At the end of the 50 yards there was a round turn around.  When I asked the farmer why they had these he said "bears".  they spread their arms and start pushing the corn in.  till they can no longer push it then sit down and start eating and roll around in a circle till they can't eat any more.  Then I started thinking the bear had a wing span at least as wide if not wider than my Jeep.  Slugs went with me every where for a while.  I had to poop in the woods, I left the pistol and grabbed the riot gun stoked with slugs and a roll of TP
With that said.
I would still pick one of my 357 or 44 revolvers if headed into the woods today.
If I had to do everything all over again.
I think, If I had to pick one gun to fit all the needs you said. It would be a S&W N frame 4" in 44mag.
There are four power levels for the 44 mag as well.
44 Special target,
44 Special CCW (180 or 200 grain JHP or silver tip or other.) about the power of 45 ACP bullet weight and speed are similar and the .451 or .429 bullet diameter is not going to make a difference when the 180 grain or 185 grain bullets are moving at similar speeds. we are talking .022 of an inch.
44 Mag light (180 grain JSP or JHP and the 210 grain Win Silver tips)  Even these are a hand full the 180 grain bullat at 1600 FPS is twice the foot pounds of a 45 or 40.  The powder puff 210 silver tip is 50% more foot pounds than the 40 or 45 ACP.
44 Full mag of the 240 grain JHP, JSP- the all copper projectiles for no lead hunting and the 300 grain lead solids for the heavier game.
And again a simple change of speed loaders and you can go from mild to holy cow wild with the flick of your wrists and the snap of your fingers.
While a N Frame is large there are many holsters that can help tuck it away. and changing grips from wide target style that I like in the woods to absorb recoil to smaller boot type grips for CCW.  All changed with a simple turning of a screw.
I think you need to look at what the primary use would be.  CCW or woods.
I have a friend that carries an H&K USP compact in 40 all the time.  When hunting or for CCW.  Of course it is not a primary hunting firearm but ment to finish deer or hogs.   But the 40 is nothing compared to the 7MM STW he normally has as a hunting rifle.  That has more than 6 times the foot pounds of the 40.

[ga41]

Stuck on either 40 or 45 ? Go with the 45, modify to work with the 45 Super, buy a hi cap 45, Kimber and Para both have had them and pray you never have to use them in self defense

[jamaldog87]

460 rowland conversion kit for your 1911. 

Ballistic performance 460 rowland
185 gr  JHP 1,425 ft/s = 834 ft·lbf 
230 gr  JHP 1,250 ft/s =798 ft·lbf
230 gr  FMJ 1,250 ft/s = 798 ft·lbf
255 gr  Bonded Core HP 1,100 ft/s = 685 ft·lbf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.460_Rowland