Author Topic: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre  (Read 2100 times)

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TM7

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St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« on: February 15, 2011, 03:56:11 AM »
The anniversary of a horrific holocaust of humanity occurred yesterday, St. Valentine's Day. A literal holocaust even the most jaded of humanity is at a lost to explain and coverup. This is the firebombing of civilian refugees on St. Valentine's Day, 66 years ago Monday...This represents the single largest wanton massacre of Christians by Christians in history. The target was Dresden at ww2 end. Dresden was a cultural, hospital, and refugee center at war's end..of little industrial importance, if any at all...completely defenseless. Even the railroad yards weren't bombed.

...There are many that would coverup this bloodlust and deny this holocaust to further their own bloodlust to further in justification of corrupt agendi and murders of the defensless; and this represents the negation of American values once again, a moral and spirtual  bankruptcy literally.

Kurt Vonnegut was not one of them and he saw the massacre firsthand wherein estimates of 250-500 thousand civilian human beings were incinerated in 14 hours by over 600,000 incinderary bombs ...2 bombs for each casualty!. Thankfully, decent military veterans caught up in this massacre have come to terms with it admitting the utter useless futility of the mission to serve the aims of a few psychopaths. Yet others insist in a Dresden Denial, instead putting faith only in another holocaust of dubious facts. The Dresden massacre was real...it really unmistakenly happened....but you're not suppose to kow that!

Here's Vonnegut's account and other remarks told to journalists :

"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr
 
On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time. 


Kurt Vonnegut was in Dresden when it was bombed in 1945, and wrote a famous anti-war novel, Slaughterhouse Five, in 1969.
 
In February 1945, Vonnegut was witness to another pretty good imitation of Mt Vesuvius; the firebombing by Allied forces of Dresden, the town in eastern Germany, during the last months of the Second World War. More than 600,000 incen-diary bombs later, the city looked more like the surface of the moon. Returning home to India-napolis after the war, Vonnegut began writing short stories for magazines such as Collier's and The Saturday Evening Post, and, seven years later, published his first novel, Player Piano. ...
 
 
Finally, in 1969, he tackled the subject of war, recounting his experiences as a POW in Dresden, forced to dig corpses from the rubble. The resulting novel was Slaughterhouse Five. Banned in several US states - and branded a "tool of the devil" in North Dakota - it carried the snappy alternative title: "The Children's Crusade: A Duly Dance with Death, by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, a fourth-generation German-American now living in easy circumstances on Cape Cod (and smoking too much) who, as an American infantry scout hors de combat, as a prisoner of war, witnessed the fire bombing of Dresden, Germany - the Florence of the Elbe - a long time ago, and survived to tell the tale: this is a novel somewhat in the telegraphic schizopfrenic manner of tales of the planet Tralfamodre, where the flying saucers come from, Peace." ....
 
In December 1944, Vonnegut was captured by the German army and became a prisoner of war. In Slaughterhouse Five, he describes how he narrowly escaped death a few months later in the firebombing of Dresden. "Yes, by your people [the English], may I say," he insists. "You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. I'm fond of your people, on occasion, but I was just thinking about 'Bomber Harris, who believed in attacks on civilian populations to make them give up. A hell of a lot of Royal Air Force guys were ashamed of what Harris had made them do. And that's really sportsmanship and, of course, the Brits are famous for being good sports," he concedes.
 
The Independent, London, 20 December 2001, p. 19
 
***************
 
The death toll was staggering. The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000 -- possibly as many as a half a million -- persons died within a 14-hour period, whereas estimates of those who died at Hiroshima range from 90,000 to 140,000.*

Allied apologists for the massacre have often "twinned" Dresden with the English city of Coventry. But the 380 killed in Coventry during the entire war cannot begin to compare with over 1,000 times that number who were slaughtered in 14 hours at Dresden. Moreover, Coventry was a munitions center, a legitimate military target. Dresden, on the other hand, produced only china--and cups and saucers can hardly be considered military hardware!

It is interesting to further compare the respective damage to London and Dresden, especially when we recall all the Hollywood schmaltz about the "London blitz." In one night, 1,600 acres of land were destroyed in the Dresden massacre. London escaped with damage to only 600 acres during the entire war.

In one ironic note, Dresden's only conceivable military target -- its railroad yards -- was ignored by Allied bombers. They were too busy concentrating on helpless old men, women and children.

If ever there was a war crime, then certainly the Dresden Holocaust ranks as the most sordid one of all time. Yet there are no movies made today condemning this fiendish slaughter; nor did any Allied airman--or Sir Winston--sit in the dock at Nuremberg. In fact, the Dresden airmen were actually awarded medals for their role in this mass murder. But, of course, they could not have been tried, because there were "only following orders."

This is not to say that the mountains of corpses left in Dresden were ignored by the Nuremberg Tribunal. In one final irony, the prosecution presented photographs of the Dresden dead as "evidence" of alleged National Socialist atrocities against Jewish concentration-camp inmates!

Churchill, the monster who ordered the Dresden slaughter, was knighted, and the rest is history. The cold-blooded sadism of the massacre, however, is brushed aside by his biographers, who still cannot bring themselves to tell how the desire of one madman to "impress" another one let to the mass murder of up to a half million men, women and children


~~~~~~~~~~

..TM7
.


   

Offline briarpatch

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 09:47:38 AM »
I wrote a long script on my thoughts concerning this subject, then I erased it.
I do not understand the bombing of Dresden. What was there that someone wanted destroyed?What did they want hid? Did they really want a high death toll? Why was tons of incendiary bombs used when they weren't used in other cities of Europe? Allied forces knew there was mostly women and children in the city that had come from around Germany as refugees because the city had no significance as a war target. The one area outside the city that would constitute a military target was not a target of the bombings. It was now just 3 months before the surrender of Germany 
I did quite a bit of research on it some time ago and found many excuses from many different people and personally I don't believe any of them.
I cannot tell who ordered the bombings or why. In the final word it don't matter.
Those that wage war for the sake of war will go to hell because war is hell.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 09:58:38 AM »
It was a communication center , it was a rail center , it had 50000 workers in the production of military products working in 110 factories . THe city council had a study conducted that estimated that between 22000 and 25000 people were killed a far cry from the undocumented reports . the council were  people who in effect had a dog in the fight.
 Whats your point ?
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2011, 10:03:54 AM »
I'm gonna say the will to fight on was the target, plain and simple. I believe the message was something to the effect of "if you want all of your wives and children incinerated fight on". War is an ugly thing, makes people do things they have a hard time explaining, especially in hindsight.  Would it have been better to fight on piecemeal and kill a like number over a year or two? Taking casualties to our own forces? To paraphrase Gen Patton let the other poor bastard die for his country.

The German people could have at any time turned their weapon upon Hitler and his cronies. They tried one to few times, at least.

I really see no reason to question those who were making the decision on the ground in real time.

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Offline billy_56081

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2011, 11:39:22 AM »
WOW we bombed an industrialized city in a country we were at war with. What a shocker!
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline briarpatch

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2011, 01:09:29 PM »
Billy, no matter how you cut the cake that is exactly what happend.  Good or bad, right or wrong.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2011, 02:33:56 PM »
Again, nothing but an industrialised city in a country the DECLARED WAR ON US was bombed during a war. Great job commanders and don't let some Nazi wanna be try to spew lies to change history.

How about we cheer this great raid of WW2, Hip Hip Hooray!

3 cheers all. lets see em.
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Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2011, 04:11:02 PM »
England was bombed, Germany was bombed. Germany was bombed more. Who has Germany bombed since?  I'm thinking the same procedure should be used in a couple of problem areas yesterday.

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2011, 05:59:55 PM »
England was bombed, Germany was bombed. Germany was bombed more. Who has Germany bombed since?  I'm thinking the same procedure should be used in a couple of problem areas yesterday.


     Pat/Rick;
   Obviously, Germany has bombed nobody since ?  Let's turn that question around..
     Who has bombed Germany since ? ..and France, the Uk , Spain and almost every civilized country in the world !  Who has bombed them?...a bunch of Muslim fanatics..that's who !

    Now, let's put a bit of perspective in place;
   It was Nazi Germany who declared "total war" (Blitzkreig) against almost all Europe..and they did their very best to destroy as much of  their European neighbors as they could.  It was Hitler's Blitzkreig which burst into a peaceful Poland and a victimized Czechoslavakia.  It was Hitler's troops who went to Norway and terrorized the population there..why ?  It was Hitler's  SS unit called "Task Force Piper" during the Battle of the Bulge, which rounded up 225 surrendered American signal corps troops near Malmedy,..and instead of treating them as POWs according to the Geneva Convention...mowed them down with machine guns.
  The Luftwaffe started bombing Coventry, in central England in1940..and repeatedly bombed it thereafter as long as they were able.
  Perhaps you do not understand, but "smart bombs" were not available during WW2 and the Geneva convention realized that war meant crippling the enemy's will and ability to fight..so it was not outlawed.
  Churchill did not intend to bomb German cities..but after the Nazis bomber rained down bombs and V-1 & V-2 rockets dove on London in 1940..he along with others began to change their minds.
  Remember; Hitler bragged that he would "wring England's neck..like a chicken"..   After the Nazis got severely whipped during the "Battle of Britain"... Winston Churchill was heard to say " Hmph..some neck...some chicken"..

  Dresden was a prime target, because despite what deniers say, it was a strategic target..filled with war efforts;

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II   ...Scroll down and find the paragrabh which lists the rich military and industrial targets !

  So why was Dresden bombed..nearly 4 full years after the Nazis brought horror to places like London, Manchester and Coventry ?  Easy question..easy answer.. Because Dresdsen was germany's 7th largest city, it was heavily involved in their war industry..and hadn't yet been bombed..
  Hitler would have done as much and much worse, had he been able..but the allies had the bombs and bombers..while Hitler didn't.

  Not too hard to figure out... ;) :D :P   
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2011, 06:16:23 PM »
Again, nothing but an industrialised city in a country the DECLARED WAR ON US was bombed during a war. Great job commanders and don't let some Nazi wanna be try to spew lies to change history.

How about we cheer this great raid of WW2, Hip Hip Hooray!

3 cheers all. lets see em.


Your coming close to calling names on here, Billy, and bad ones at that!! The bombing of Dresden did kill many innocents. That usually happens in war, and that is nothing to cheer about. Save your Hip Hip Hooray for a ball game.

If you study history............I mean truly study it, you'll find all country's have commited their share of atrocity's, and I don't think we are excluded from that list.
 
I think TM7 is using some causality figures that were exaggerated.

From what I could gather, the factories in Dresden were scattered around the city
The bombing of Dresden by the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force between 13 February and 15 February 1945 remains one of the more controversial Allied actions of the Western European theatre of war. The inner city of Dresden was largely destroyed by 800 RAF and USAAF bombers that dropped 650,000 incendiaries and 8,000 pounds (3,600 kg)[clarification needed] of high explosives and hundreds of 4,000 pounds (1,800 kg) bombs[15] in three waves of attacks. Early reports estimated 150,000 to 250,000 deaths, but the German Dresden Historians' Commission, in an official 2010 report published after five years of research, concluded there were up to 25,000 civilian casualties.

Was this Bombing necessary?..........................................I hope it was!
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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 06:25:57 PM »
  If you want to see a real dastardly act of brutality..consider what the nazis did under Hitler in Guernica, Spain in 1937 !
  Guernica was a small, quiet city..preparing for their annual fair on that day when the Nazi bombers swept down upon the unsuspecting citizens..

  http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/guernica/glevel_1/1_bombing.html

   Of course, this was in 1937..before the start of WW2..   ...But you must understand, Hitler was already planning WW2, and he needed a place to try his newly formulated "Blitzkreig" tactics.. and this Spanish city was a convenient target which could not fight back !
  NOTE: Toward the bottom of the article..the German govt finally gave an abject apology to Guernica..

  VONNEGUT:
   Many of us realize that Vonnegut had his hangups, with his hatred of the United States..just as some misled minions do today.  ..But if you quoted him right, he didn't have to lie about it ! You say his claim was that more people were killed in Dresden that day than in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki respectively..
  Well..there you go again!  Re-writing history !   Read the article.. 50,000 killed in Dresden...nearly 100,000 killed in Hiroshima alone.. look it up!

  I spent 2.5 years in German from 18 to 21 years after WW2.. I conversed with many Germans daily, most of whom lived through the war.  They realized they screwed up, electing Hitler to power and did not hate us for it !
   Oh, there were a few die-hard Nazis who still carried a grudge in Germany, ...but that is to be expected..Nazism is like a  hard-to-combat disease.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline gypsyman

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2011, 02:16:28 AM »
Didn't take much research. Local officals back in the '50's did a study, and came up with somewhere between 22,000 and 25,000 killed in Dresden. Kinda hard to kill a half a million people when the city wasn't even that big when it happened. 'Course maybe the poll takers from Chicago were counting the bodies! ;D gypsyman
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2011, 02:20:43 AM »
I pointed that out in the 3rd post but then TM7 has never let facts stand in the way of cutting down those who fight for freedom.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2011, 03:49:52 AM »
Deaths in Hiroshima..
   Considering whether one counts only the immediate deaths or those resulting from the initial explosion or the deaths from lingering effects. Immediate deaths range from 66,000 to 125,000 whil lingering deaths included, runs from 92,000 to over 200,000.
       
http://www.warbirdforum.com/hirodead.htm 
     
        While the figures vary greatly, and some amelioration is offered, depending upon their view..all are much greater than even the conspiracy types estimates of Dresden.  Surely someone should be able to fathom the mood of the citizens of a nation which was attacked so treacherously and diabolically as we were at Pearl Harbor in 1941 and again at the World Trade Center in 2001.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline billy_56081

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2011, 03:54:07 AM »
Yep, thousands of people killed in a bombing raid on a heavily industrialized city in a country that declared war on us. So where is the news. I hope you're not losing any sleep over this, I aint. Yawn!
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2011, 04:01:26 AM »
  TM;
    In 2004 the mayor of Dresden appointed a commission to examine all available sources and come up with a casualty figure for the result of that specific bomber action.  These well known citizens of Dresden came up with a final report; a report which shows the total to have been 25,000.  Still a tragedy, but not of the magnitude some try to claim it was.
 
 http://www.thelocal.de/national/20100317-25945.html

   Now I suppose you will say those citizens of Dresden ars completely wrong..being as you know so much more about Dresden than they do !  ;) :D ;D

    Sorry TM;  but today's Germans generally have gotten over their waywardness when they did the Nazi adventure !  Oh there is a small minority who still harbor hate, but few take them seriously...simply because they are either old Nazis left over, or the goofy spllinter groups of neo-Nazis which spring up now and then.

   Don't you feel a bit cornered, defending the actions of the most bloodthirsty dictator the world has ever seen; one who was so evil that his own generals tried to assassinate him ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2011, 04:20:15 AM »
Yep, thousands of people killed in a bombing raid on a heavily industrialized city in a country that declared war on us. So where is the news. I hope you're not losing any sleep over this, I aint. Yawn!


  Billy;
  Yes, the explanation is quite simple.. Hitler and Tojo got "too big for their britches" and decided to take some cheap shot "sucker punches" at others.  Thw world reeled and took a step back a bit after the blitzkreig on Poland, the blitz against London, Coventry and other British cities..along with the dastardly attack upon Pearl Harbor.
   After the initial sucker punch and the faltering, the allies came back with a vengance, delivering one knockout blow after another.  The greatest culprit contributing to bombing of Dresden, was of course old Adolph himself...  Hitler could have unconditionally surrendered at any time ...and saved his people their pain...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online ironglow

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2011, 04:22:47 AM »
Mayor Ingoff Rossberg has a problem. An increasing number of people don't believe him and other politically correct propaganda. Facts and logic rule cogent minds. Of course, these people will be labeled rightest, over there instead of leftist... ::) See posts above for alittle logic, facts, and light. What happens when 500,000 people go missing...disappear? Or is it only moslems that can do that?

And I'm NOT defending the 'world's most bloodthirsty dictator'....I'm defending the world/US from YOUR FORCES!

..TM7


   Yep; a number of the people don't believe him ...mostly conspiracy addicts ..with a few neo-Nazis thrown in... :o

   Defending against MY FORCES ?  I don't have any forces..other than the forces of LOGIC and TRUTH !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline oldandslow

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2011, 08:17:35 AM »
I have just one question, TM. Do you like anything that the United States does or has ever done?

Online ironglow

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2011, 09:04:39 AM »
Quote
   Defending against MY FORCES ?  I don't have any forces..other than the forces of LOGIC and TRUTH !
.
Yeah...the epitome of an open and tolerant logical mind...yep... ::)
Clearly, you represent a fraternalist stigmanati agenda,,,one half the paradigm putting forth a front against so-called liberalism of open information, by insisting on your own radical rightism...packaged as your own brand of politically correct history and ordained thought. People are figuring this out.

All I can say is this: I don't have a dual loyalty to any other country, or place any other country first ahead of America for any reason...I don't worship another country. If taking an oath of allegiance I wouldn't have to make any caveats. And as a conservative I'm capable of reviewing unbaisly all manner of information. I'm not a peace talker...I practice peace.

"It is only the fear of truth..that one will object the most".


..TM7
.




 to which Ironglow replies........ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline BBF

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2011, 10:55:01 AM »


The German people could have at any time turned their weapon upon Hitler and his cronies. They tried one to few times, at least.



That has got to be one of the most clueless posts I've read.
 
 There is recent vivid footage available what happens when people revolt against there dicatorial leaders and those coutries were NOT involved in a brutal war. Then the post ended with "They tried one or few times, at least. Gosh, maybe they should have tried harder. ::) ::)
 
 
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Offline powderman

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Re: St Valentine's Day...The Dresden Massacre
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2011, 12:15:55 PM »
I have just one question, TM. Do you like anything that the United States does or has ever done?




Fair question, I figure it should only take about 3 or 4 ft of scrolling to get the reply, by then of course we will have forgotten the question, which would be the whole point. POWDERMAN.  :D :D :D ;) ;) ;)
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