Let’s not spin the Civil War

[Cabin4]

Lincoln was a criminal. If history cannot judge him to be a criminal, then there are no criminals any place.

By who's interpretation?  The old south's, the US Constitution, or a handful of people in the south who are still bitter that they lost the war? As I've said before, those on the loosing end of a war alway feel violated. Get over it already...

By my account and the account of 10's of millions of others since the war started 150 years ago. Any president that would wage an armed war on his own people simply because they wanted to exercise their rights and the rights of states under the constitution, is a criminal.  Lincoln got what he desreved in the end. A taste of his own violence. He became just 1 of the 700,000 or so killed by his own orders.

especially when you pull numbers like 10's of millions out of your butt. Hard to see your side with logic like that...

Just so you know in 2008 Zogby International poll revealed that 22% of Americans believed that "any state or region has the right to peaceably secede and become an independent republic."

Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.... so you pulling what out of thier butt.... ha ha ha ha

22%: Thats over 60 million Americans!! That would be 10s of millions....... And those are just the one alive today! How about the 10s of millions in the past 150 or so years?

I'm correct and you have your head in your butt. 

[Cabin4]

and you are a loser.

Ha Ha Ha. A federal socialist. Got ya pinned. Basically just a fancy name for a law breaker. Just like Lincoln the criminal. Its okay Brewster. MSNBC has a talk forum. They trash the constitution all day long over there.You'll love thier company. Why don't you give it a whirl.

[Brewster]

geez, is that the best you can come up with?  No wonder the traitors lost their insurrection.

[Cabin4]

And exactly what have you come up with? Nothing. You can't fight the 10th amendment Brewster. Admit it, you are just dead wrong on the states’ rights issue and secession. You have absolutely no clue on this subject. You have nothing but senseless one liners to offer and no logic or facts to present in your defense.

[Brewster]

There's no need for me to defend squat.  The traitors lost and the SCOTUS have ID'd them as treasonous.  If you have a beef with that, appeal the decision to SCOTUS.  If all you can come with is personal attacks on me, then piss up a rope.

[Buckskin]

Lincoln was a criminal. If history cannot judge him to be a criminal, then there are no criminals any place.

By who's interpretation?  The old south's, the US Constitution, or a handful of people in the south who are still bitter that they lost the war? As I've said before, those on the loosing end of a war alway feel violated. Get over it already...

By my account and the account of 10's of millions of others since the war started 150 years ago. Any president that would wage an armed war on his own people simply because they wanted to exercise their rights and the rights of states under the constitution, is a criminal.  Lincoln got what he desreved in the end. A taste of his own violence. He became just 1 of the 700,000 or so killed by his own orders.

especially when you pull numbers like 10's of millions out of your butt. Hard to see your side with logic like that...

Just so you know in 2008 Zogby International poll revealed that 22% of Americans believed that "any state or region has the right to peaceably secede and become an independent republic."

Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.... so you pulling what out of thier butt.... ha ha ha ha

22%: Thats over 60 million Americans!! That would be 10s of millions....... And those are just the one alive today! How about the 10s of millions in the past 150 or so years?

I'm correct and you have your head in your butt. 

That's not where your number came from.  It was that Lincoln was a criminal.  Go and check you Zogby and get back to me when you get 10's of millions to agree with that...  Your poll will come up with a handful of nutcases, you can find a handful of those on every subject you can think of. The south lost - deal with it, I know it's hard but be a big boy and realize history deems Lincoln as a Hero and one of the greatest presidents in the history of the USA.  Not the criminal that you "wish" he was.

And the south could have become an independant republic, all they had to do was win the war.  Guess they didn't want it badly enough...

[williamlayton]

Several post ago was a very good statement.
Did the states form the Union or did the Union form the states.
Then it was said that the states could leave if they formed it.

Let's look at that in another light. One for all and all for one. Perhaps when you become part of a unit you loose sense of self.

I would never say anything defending or implying to defend a state not having the right to rebel---or a person. That is abosolute foolishness.
A midget has the right to take on a middle linebacker. Just don't cry foul when you loose.
What we are loosing sight of is that the attempt was made and it did not work.
There ae several othe facts most do not want to admit. The South was not about forming another Union it was about forming other nations witha peace treaty with each other.
Lincoln looked at the bigger picture  and took the stance that the bigger picture was  more benificial to all than a few.
Blessings

[Cabin4]

The states formed a Union. No question about that even from a pure legal perspective.

And Buckskin, don't put words in my mouth. I know what I wrote and everyone can read it. I could care less if you think I'm a nut case because I believe in the constitution. And yes, the poll is an accurate reading of what this country feels about a states right to leave the union. That was the point, not some other point. And while you mention it, it would have to hold relatively true that if someone believes states have a legal right to leave the union, then action to forcibly prevent would be illegal. You can't have it both ways. The only real nut cases are the federalists that are ignoring what is written in the constitution. Anyone that would argue that the words don't exist in that document are just plain childish.

[Buckskin]

Cabin,

Whatever you say makes no difference - history says otherwise. The north won, the south lost and Lincoln was a patriot, a liberator and acknowledge as one of the greatest president ever. Period.  Your little Zogby poll spin is about as lame as an arguement as you could possibly come up with.  Aren't you a Kalifornia Boy anyway, the most liberal whacked out state in the Country??? And by all means I would be all for Kalifornia leaving with no ill will at all.

[Cabin4]

I'm not surprised. When the federalists lose the argument on historicla and constitutional facts, they always revert to the north won and the south lost as the final arbiter. You say history says I'm wrong yet I never once disagreed that the outcome of the war was the south lost. You’re not worth having a discussion here on this subject. As far as the Zogby pole goes, if you had a brain, you would have said ...and 78% though that secession was not a right. But your too dumb to even use any factual data to your own advantage. You never once presented any facts to support that sesession is unconstitutional. And that is the real reason why you can only revert to the north won and south lost as if that means the war was a just cause. As far as liberal, you have already deemed yourself a liberal. We have it in writing.

[Pass Lake]

Nate Silver of FiveThirtyEight.com says," Zogby International is the worst pollster in the world."  I am not an expert on pollsters, but on the eve of the 2006 Presidential election Zogby predicted Kerry would win 311 electoral votes and defeat G.W. Bush.  In my mind that creates a creditability issue.

[Cabin4]

Fine on trashing Zogby polling data. But you really don't beleive that thier are and have been 10's of  millions who agree secession is legal? Okay, we can move on.....

James Buchanan, Fourth Annual Message to Congress on the State of the Union December 3, 1860: "The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."

Thomas Jefferson: "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate

These are just small examples of historical facts. Jefferson helped write the constitution and even he believed secession was just fine.

The Linclon lover federalists always ignore the facts. The fact is Lincoln preserved the Union in violation of our laws. He represents the highest form of criminal and deserved the shot to the head. A patriot to our country he was not.

[Buckskin]

And I'm a liberal why???  Because I don't agree with you or that I think Lincoln was right and it was in the best interest of the country to squash the souths ideas of seceeding.  Go check the definition of a Liberal.  Maybe Zogby can help you out... Your twisted facts bore me and it seems everyone esle here too.  I am done with this post and you can keep spouting to yourself that its great that one of our presidents got assasinated.  Shows a lot of class, but I guess that's fit the groove...

[Cabin4]

And I'm a liberal why???  Because I don't agree with you or that I think Lincoln was right and it was in the best interest of the country to squash the souths ideas of seceeding.  Go check the definition of a Liberal.  Maybe Zogby can help you out... Your twisted facts bore me and it seems everyone esle here too.  I am done with this post and you can keep spouting to yourself that its great that one of our presidents got assasinated.  Shows a lot of class, but I guess that's fit the groove...

Yes, you’re a liberal. Only a liberal would agree that violating the constitution is "good for the country". No constitutional conservative would ever agree with that. And yes, Lincoln got what he deserved. He’s responsible for the death of nearly 700,000 Americans by using unlawful reasons & actions. You love him for this. Only a liberal could come to that conclusion.

You say my facts are twisted, yet I actually presented facts that even you cannot dispute. So how are the words written in the constitution that I quoted twisted? Explain to us how I twisted the words of Jefferson and Buchanan?

Let’s hear it Buckskin? No more anecdotal posts that completely lack facts. Put the facts were your mouth is. Type something and tell us how I twisted these facts.

[Swampman]

I love the South and I'm glad we lost.

[Cabin4]

The south hates you and they wish you would leave.

[Swampman]

I am the south.  I wish you'd stop being a know it all.  You remind me of all the Yankees I know.

[Cabin4]

Your not the south. You just inhabit their land. No true Southerner loves Lincoln. You would be considered a traitor.