powder age

[Zeke R]

A few months ago started a thread about how my father-in-law gave me a keg of surplus 4831 powder. He put his guns for sale on consignment and a potential buyer fired a wilcat 25-06 improved rifle with one of his handloads and the gun blew up (no one was hurt). Someone told him that powder becomes more potent with age and father-in-law and my wife were really freaked out and wanted me to dispose of the powder. The powder smelled alright and has been stored in a cool basement. Anyway, I forgot about this matter until I came across this article in the NRA Handloading book (1981):
 
Handloader's smokeless rifle powders by E.H. Harrison and WM. C. Davis

Deterioration of smokeless powders

  "All smokeless powders eventually deteriorate, though some have remained servicable for more than 50 years and few modern smokeless powders have a useful life of less than 20 tears unless subjected to very adverse storage conditions. Chemical deterioration causes a decrease in pressure and velocitry when powder is fired, so it is not dangerous to fire aging powder powder, though the velocity and pressure becomes more variable as deterioration progresses and performance becomes less satisfactory."

It's been awhile since I saw this gun, but if I remember correctly, it was built on a Springfied action, one of my friends said that early Springfields had weak receivers. Since I don't know the serial number, I have no way of knowing if this might have been a factor. Anyway, I've decided to keep the powder and try some starting loads in 30-06 and work up carefully. I would hate to throw out 25+ lbs of perfectly good powder. I've been a long time lurker on GBO and I've learned a lot here so I want to follow up on what I've found. I'll introduce myself on the appropriate forum soon.

zeke

[LONGTOM]

"All smokeless powders eventually deteriorate, though some have remained serviceable for more than 50 years and few modern smokeless powders have a useful life of less than 20 tears unless subjected to very adverse storage conditions. Chemical deterioration causes a decrease in pressure and velocity when powder is fired, so it is not dangerous to fire aging powder powder, though the velocity and pressure becomes more variable as deterioration progresses and performance becomes less satisfactory."

I guess that rules out the powders age as the cause of the blowup.

As long as the powder doesn't have a musty smell and you don't have a lot of powder dust in it and there is no clumps in it I would say it is still in good shape.
I know I have some that I bought back in the 80s and it is still fine.
Just my opinion.



LONGTOM

[.22-5-40]

Hello, Zeke R.  If you smell that powder..and it has an acrid odor that actually hurts your nose..And I am not refering to the natural either like smell of normal smokeless powders..that should be a tip-off that powder has gone bad.  Also, if you notice a red rust colored dust in the powder itself..not from the metal of the can..that is a good sign to dump that powder..makes for good lawn fertilizer.  Old deteriorating powders do not explode..but have known to spontainously ignite..not a good thing in the house!

[Zeke R]

Looks ok and smells like another powder that I bought last week. I have had powder go bad in the past and I took it to the hazmat place here in pdx, so I'm not going to mess around if I think it is bad. That just goes to show you that there is a lot of misinformation out there, if powder becomes more potent as it ages, it would stand to reason that if you fired some ammo that was loaded say 25 years ago, that your gun could blow up. I'd be willing to bet that just about everyone here on GBO has fired old ammo with no adverse effects. I would like to see one of the powder companies do a study where they load some shells with one of their powders that is at least 25 years old and some with a new lot and test the pressure.

zr

[wncchester]

I still have several pounds of original H-4831 from WWII, it no longer has a solvent odor and seems a bit "weaker" than it was 45 years ago wjhen I got it but it sure works good enough to keep using it in my .30-06.

I strongly suspect your guy's reload had a more serious problem than simply "old" powder, especially old H-4831.

[manatee1947]

I remember reading about a keg of shotgun powder, at the company headquarters that was actually stored IN WATER, and every decade they take some out, bake the water out, and test it. This was on powder that was 80-90 years old. I think it may have been Hercules, but I am not sure. I know that I am still using IMR 3031 that was made in the '70s with no problems. I think there are probably lots of people who would like to create anxiety about old powder usage.

[rugerfan.64]

I have the answer to your problem. Send it to me and I will inspect said suspect powder. Seriously though,my uncle gave me several pounds of shotgun powder from the 70's when he was loading shot shells, I've used it alot in pistol ammo and have never had a problem. This stuff has been stored in MS which by my estimation is probably the worst environment possible with the hot humid summers. Good luck and as mentioned earlier,if theres no acrid smell or rust color you're probably ok.

[sr sawyer]

The only powder I have ever had to go bad was about 3 pounds of an 8 pound keg of IMR 3031.
It was close to 35 years old and had not been opened in ten years and was in the original metal can.  It had the red dust and acrid smell previously referred to.  I tried some of it anyway and it still went bang and showed no signs of excess pressure. 

If I still have some I will load a few rounds and try them over the chrono and see the results.  It would be interesting to see how much velocity is lost.

Ken

[southernutah]

there was either an over charge , bullet pressed into rifleings or barrel blockage, need more info and to damage. Barrel, action, bolt??

[ardeekay]

I too have some wwII 4831, and it  looks and smells ok, I have found that I can't get enough of it in a cartridge case that load books call for.  It must be lighter or something, for example, if a load book calls for 50.0 grains of it, I can only get 48.0 of it into the case... my newer 4831 is ok, can get the case filled properly.  I have shot the old stuff anyway, and it goes bang.. and in my 270 give excellent groups even tho it a bit of a lower load.  I was under the impression that as powder get old, it's explosive power gets weaker...
  I just picked up a Mannlicher stocked O3A3 in 25-06 !!  Its very pretty, now I'm going to be very carefull in working up a load... Are the springfield actions known to be weak??  I won't be able to fire this rifle for about 2 more months... Bob

[sr sawyer]

The Springfield O3A3 is a plenty strong action.  I had one barrelled in the 270 Weatherby Magnum at one time.  It would take a major BOOBOO to blow one up with 25-06.  The same cannot be said for the Springfield O3.

Ken

[Zeke R]

I guess this is all speculation now, but I think it's fun to hash this over on this forum. Everyone here has brought up some good points about what went wrong, and seems to agree that the powder wasn't at fault. I was also wondering about overcharging a 30-06 class case with 4831 because my own experience using this powder in the 30-06 is that when you get near the max load, you get a compressed charge. I realize that max loads and case capacities vary, but it almost seems that you really have to work at it to exceed maximum charge weights. I sure am glad that I didn't use this powder for fertilizer and that I stumbled upon that NRA article. At the rate I'm able to go shooting it will probably go bad some day, but I'll worry about that when that day comes. By the way, I remember seeing my father-in-law's cases, they were military 30-06 sized in the 25-06 imp dies. I also remember seeing funny dents in the shoulders and I asked him about them and he said they didn't matter, more food for thought. later,

zr

zr

[rugerfan.64]

Probably excess lube on the shoulders. Not very pretty but you wont notice it on target and they'll be gone by the time the bullets exits the muzzle.

[.22-5-40]

Hello, Here is a very informative site on historical smokeless history: www.laflinandrand.com