Author Topic: simple 45-70 BP reloading?  (Read 2701 times)

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Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« on: August 27, 2003, 10:41:23 PM »
I will be purchaseing a Uberti High Wall tomorrow, and while I'll shoot smokless for a while I want to save the emties and load with black powder.  At alomost a dollar a round for smokless 45-70 I think I can do a little cheaper and have more fun shooting BP.

I am planning on useing the Lyman 310 plier looking reloader as I don't have a press, don't have space for a press, have no desire to re-load anything but 45-70, yet :wink: Well maybe 45 colt, but shoot more cap and ball colts than peace makers.

What I'm wonder is what would be the best cast or swaged bullet to buy?  I'm thinking 405 grain flat nose or 500 grain flat nose hard cast.

Also will I have to melt the SP lube off and re-coat with BP lub?

Also I plan on useing Goex FF powder, will this work?

My main use for this gun will be target shooting to 5-600 yards and hunting to 400, how will the black powder perform?

Looking to do this as simple and as cheap as posible

Thanks, this forum has already been a huge help. :-)
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Offline ButlerFord45

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2003, 12:49:08 AM »
Congratulations Will.  Those are some awfully nice guns and I believe you'll enjoy it.   It sounds like you've got this planned out pretty well.  I've wanted a 310 for a long time,  they're just a little pricy for nastalga when there are so many other things on my "I want" list.  I think it will do a good job for you.
Almost anyone that sell's bullets, will have a line of blackpowder bullets that are pre lubed with spg.  I know that Cabelas carries Meister 405 grain
SPG lubed bullets, I use them in my '86.   One of the moderators here is an advertiser of cast bullet manufacture.  He moderates the casting forum.
Melting the smokless lube off of regular lubed bullets and relubing with homemade lube is easier done than explained, it's really that easy.  
Goex is good powder, so far it's all I've used, but I'm just getting into the experimental phase of BPCRs
My first few shot's with my '86 was at a barrel  at 545 yards,  had to walk the rounds in to the target, but then hit consistantly though the sight picture wasn't very pretty.  Rear sight to max and the bead on the front above the rear sight  and held at the top of the barrel.   I'd recomend a tang sight  :grin:
I wouldn't recommend the 45-70 as a 400 yard hunting round.  It's not that the bullet doesen't nave enough momentum at that range, it's that it moves slowly enough that it has a very high arch to the trajectory and if your off on your range estimation just a little,  the bullet can be off several inches from point of aim resulting in a miss at best or at worst, wounded quary.
OOPS!!  I missed the question about the heavier bullet.  The Lyman 457125 style bullet is one of the original styles, it casts about 500 grains with 4 lube groves and a long rounded nose.  This is one of the bullets that literally everyone suggested when I was starting to cast for long range shooting..  So far I'm really pleased with the results, but as I mentioned earlier, I'm just starting to scratch the surface.
I hope you'll post your results,  I'd like to have someone at my level of expertise to compare notes with.

Good Luck with your project
Butler Ford
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Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2003, 05:47:21 AM »
Thanks, well I'm off to pic it up, hope it's still in the store :lol:  

I defenatly plan on getting the tange peep sight and front globe, don't care for the buck horn style and not enough ejustment.

I'll keep you posted,  Will
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Offline Rick Crabtree

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2003, 06:28:19 AM »
I have used a 310 for 25 plus years and love the nostalgia of. Also it does a great job.
Don't forget to put a wad between the powder and bullet. Generaly Goex ff like to be compressed.
PLEASE forget the notion about a 45-70(or any caliber really) being a 400 yard hunting round.
Good luck, but be warned you are entering a magnificant obsession.
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Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2003, 06:20:15 PM »
Got the gun and love it except for one minor problem, I cant' hit didly with the buck horn sights.  Kinda funny as I used to get 1" groups out of my old M-16 A2 at 500 yards.  Never shot a rifle that handles like this before eigther.  Haveing a real hard time with the sights, think I need to switch to a tange peep.  The Buck horn is mounted on the barrel and tends to blure with the front sight post to where I can't get a sight picture.  

Is a wad between powder and bullet realy necisary?  I'll be useing Montana Precision Swaged 500 grain round nose bullets.  Will the wad help clean the barrel?  Or will the powder burn deform the bullet base?

I have taken deer and antilope regurlary with a Mossen Nagant at 300+ yards, but that's a lot flatter shooting rifle.  Figureing on doing a lot of bench shooting till I find the rifle and my limits.  Don't worry, If I have any dout about the shot I won't take it and work closer to the animal instead of wounding it.

Thanks
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Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2003, 06:23:11 PM »
Oh yea, about the recoil, not bad at all, but if you don't hold it in tight it'll remind you! :)
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Offline Charlie Detroit

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2003, 07:47:44 PM »
OK, first of all, how old are you? This business with the sights could easily be a function of age. It is not uncommon to find antique rifles that show several filled-up dovetails going progressively up the barrel, showing how the rear sight was moved forward as the owner aged. This was before the common use of the rear aperture sight. The rear aperture sight works for two reasons: 1) you don't look AT it, you look THROUGH it, so you don't have to focus on it, and 2) the smallish hole you look through creates what's called "pinhole effect", which makes everything sharp, from close-up to infinity. The brighter the light, the smaller hole you can use, which makes the effect even stronger. A tang peep is ideal, if it works for you. It has to allow you some place to put your thumb, and you have to like it. Some folks don't.
Oddly enough, my eyes right now are in a stage where a simple +1 lens makes everything sharp, almost as well as a peep, so I'm livin' large for a spell. You might try some el cheapo drugstore glasses to experiment with. The store will probably take a dim view of you bringing in your rifle, putting on a pair of their glasses, and aiming at stuff, so just buy a pair and take 'em home...
I ain't paranoid but every so often, I spin around real quick.--just in case
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Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2003, 10:05:31 PM »
Well now, I'm only 30, and have 20/20 vision.

If the buck horn rear had a larger notch(may file one in) things would be differnt.  Have no trouble with any other gun, includeing the old Naggant.

Speeking of peep sight apitures, most military rifles have them, makes sence I guess.

Thanks
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Offline Charlie Detroit

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2003, 04:45:14 AM »
If the buckhorn has windage in it, go to it; start filing the notch wider. The buckhorn type of sight has always driven me to distraction...I feel like I'm just guessing. The better ones have a flat portion on either side of the notch, making (in effect) a Patridge-type sight. This works pretty well, especially if the front is a square-top blade or post. Really wide fronts need some sort of center-indicator (either a filed-in notch or a vertical white line), since they cover up so much of the landscape 'way out yonder. That's my main problelm with buckhorns, incidentally...I feel like I'm 'waaaay back in a dark room, trying to shoot out through a little window.
I ain't paranoid but every so often, I spin around real quick.--just in case
Sometimes I have a gun in my hand when I spin around.--just in case
I ain't paranoid, but sometimes I shoot when I spin around.--just in case

Offline The Shrink

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2003, 04:49:34 AM »
Will

Let me answer a couple of your questions.  

First, you want a soft cast bullet, not the hard cast used for pistols.  You cna get them from Buffalo Arms, and you can get almost anything else I suggest there as well.  The soft cast bullet will swage down or bump up to fill the rifling, preventing gas blow-by and thus preventing leading and increasing accuracy.  The 405 bullet requires a hard crimp to encourage powder burn, the 500 gr. does not as it is heavy enough for inertia to do the trick.

Second, you can probably get by without resizing the brass that you use for BP.  Bullets are typically hand seated and crimped.  Thus you need to de-cap your cases, clean them, cap them, flare the mouth, and crimp them as far as dealing with the brass is concerned.  

Goex is fine, many good shooters use it.  It must be compressed, and this is the big difference between black and smokeless reloading.  You can get a compression die from Buffalo Arms, I turned a hardwood plug and mounted it in my drill press to do the same thing.  The powder will fill, or mostly fill the case.  You can simply dip fill the case, place a wad, compress, and seat the bullet, but most use weighed or measured amounts of powder dropped through a drop tube.  This is simply a small tube that will fit into the case mouth, about 24"-30+" long, with a powder funnel taped to the other end, usually mounted on a bracket so you don't have to hold it, too.  Arrow shafts are frequently used.  The use of the drop tube compresses the powder some, so you can get more in the case.  

Figure how much space you need for the bullet and wad, and this is how far from the mouth of the case the powder is compressed.  This figure is usually around .25-.30" from the top of the powder, maybe as much as .40 from the top of the case.  Goex especially seems to do better compressed, I've read that Swiss does better uncompressed.  

Once you have your powder compressed, seat your bullet down on the wad.  If the bullet is to high, you need more compression.  If it is to low, you need less.  THERE SHOULD NEVER BE ANY AIR SPACE IN A BP CARTRIDGE!

Yes, you will need a wad.  It increases the pressure curve, it protects the base of the bullet from the flame front, and it does help to seal the bore.  Either plastic, from coffee can lids, or veggie fiber wads from Buffalo Arms are your typical choices.  Some use heavy waxed paper, from milk containers.  You will want to get a wad punch, either the press mounted (quiet and fast?) or the hammer struck style, which I use.  

Now you have your powder measured and dropped, your wad seated, and your powder and wad compressed.  You press in the bullet, and with a once fired, non-sized case, all you need to do is have flared the mouth slightly to seat the bullet with your fingers.  Then you slide this into your bullet crimper and crimp lightly with the 500 gr. bullet, just enough to keep it in the case, and with the 405 a roll crimp to hold it in place for a microsecond after firing.  

Congratulations, you have loaded a round.
Wayne the Shrink

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Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2003, 05:51:05 PM »
Thanks guys, I finaly got it to shoot and hit the target.  I had smutted the sights the first time and it didn't help, but today it did.  I guess the sights still had oil on them or were coming out from cracks and creaveses.  Well a few minits with a couple of matches and low and behold I could see the sights plain as day!  Will probly get a tange peep though as I had a hard time over 200 yards, but will be fine for hunting around home as the range will be 50-75 yards.

Shrink, thanks for the tutorial on re-loading.  Couple questions if you don't mind.

How many times can a case be reloaded with black powder?  And I was under the impression that it wasn't neccisary to crimp for use in a single shot rifle?

Thanks for everybodies help,

Will
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Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2003, 05:57:25 PM »
One more question, would it help to use a lube cookie between two wads?

Thanks,
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Offline The Shrink

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2003, 03:10:50 AM »
Will

Loaded the way I specified, without resizing, it seems that the case life is indefinite.  It probably isn't, but you get little to no stretch and little to no work in the brass, so why won't it last as long as it's kept clean?  I keep a container of water and dish soap at the range when I shoot, I de-cap and drop the case in the soapy water between shots.  

When you don't resize, the bullet is a slip fit and will slip out without a crimp.  This becomes another variable in the equasion when searching for the accurate load with BP.  With the light 405 bullet crimping was found to be necessary to hold the bullet in place just a smidgen longer for more complete powder ignition.  This was discovered in the 1800's when the Army was experiementing with the lighter bullet.

As long as your bullet has lube grooves, cookies are unnecessary and further complicate both the loading and finding the accurate load.  They are used with paper patched bullets, which have no lube grooves.
Wayne the Shrink

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Offline JBMauser

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2003, 03:54:15 AM »
Wayne the Shrink, I have been told and read that the lube disk is to soften the fouling.  It does nothing to lube the bullet.  Paper patched bullets do not need lubing as no lead touches the barrel just as jacketed bullets do not need lube or lube grooves.  some coat PP with wax to weather proof them but they can be shot sans lube just fine.  A Paper patched bullet is a jacketed bullet.  JB

Offline Charlie Detroit

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2003, 04:56:51 AM »
Hi, Shrink...
I've been toying with the idea of a taper crimp (รก la Lee) on BP .45-70s, to give enough neck tension to ensure better burning. Any experience with this?
I ain't paranoid but every so often, I spin around real quick.--just in case
Sometimes I have a gun in my hand when I spin around.--just in case
I ain't paranoid, but sometimes I shoot when I spin around.--just in case

Offline The Shrink

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2003, 11:48:45 AM »
JB Mauser

The role of the lube is to soften the fouling and render it easily removed by the next shot.  The question is to get it into the barrel, it doesn't lube the bore for the bullet but softens the fouling for the next bullet.  The idea is to create as close to an identical environment in the barrel for each following shot as is possible.  Thus the competitive shooters use a "fouling shot" to create a fouled barrel before shooting their competitive shots.

Charlie

I haven't used it cause I don't have the die!  I'd question the usefulness in the 405 bullet cause it needs considerable crimp, but this should be adequate for the 500 bullet, all the crimp needs to do is hold the bullet in.  I've shot them with so light a crimp that the bullet spins in the case but doesn't come out.   This seems the most accurate, in fact.
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Offline Charlie Detroit

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2003, 03:44:30 AM »
Yeah, well, a lot of the old-timers use no crimp at all in the SSRs, in fact, they claim that they leave the "bell" in the mouthof the case, and it helps center the cartridge in the chamber. Of course, these guys are seating the bullet out just shy of the rifling lands (some of them actually touch) and relying on that "early engagement" to retard the initial motion of the bullet.
I ain't paranoid but every so often, I spin around real quick.--just in case
Sometimes I have a gun in my hand when I spin around.--just in case
I ain't paranoid, but sometimes I shoot when I spin around.--just in case

Offline Will52100

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2003, 01:07:08 AM »
Well finaly got my 303 loader, and if I'd known reloading was this easy I'd gotten into it a lot soner!  The Lyman 303 worked great, only problem with it was the primmer seating die had buggered threads where something droped and mashed them a little.  Twenty minits with a needle file fixed it just fine.

It took three dummy rounds till I got it right, but I cant' wait to go burn some powder tomorrow!

Thanks for all the help guys.
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Offline nohorse

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simple 45-70 BP reloading?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2004, 01:24:48 AM »
Having shot 45-70 BP for the last 10 years or so, I am not an expert but will share a few experiences -

Yes - use a soft lead bullet.  I shoot a 520 grain postell style cast 30 parts lead to 1 part tin [30:1].  You can purchase a similar design in both 20:1 and 30:1 if you don't want to cast your own.

I don't know about the 405 bullet but I do not crimp. I adjust the neck tension with the crimping die to hold the bullet but not crimp it. My friends that are shooters do not crimp either.  I know that Matthews suggested a crimp for the 45-70 trapdoor but I always used a 500 grain bullet in mine and found it also shot better using neck tension. Same for my Sharps.

Some shooters resize and some do not. I do. I also use the seating die to seat the bullet.  I start the bullet with my fingers  and seat it with the die. As mentioned before use cleaned, decapped, trimmed brass and if you decide to use neck tension make sure when you bell or "flare: the case mouth, only bell it enough to hand start the bullet. You do not need a lot of flare. I also mark my mold so I can index the bullet to the same in the same manner for each cartridge.

I have 310 tool and like it. I also have an RCBS rock crusher mounted on a portable stand from MidwayUSA so I can sit in the den and reload while I watch TV and visit with the family. Works great! By the way, how do ya adjust the 310 tool so ya don't get the digs in the brass when ya extract it from the sizing die?  Also, its been a while, but if I remember correctly I compressed the BP in my rock crusher and then went to the 310 tool. Do they make a compression die that fits the 310? As you can see most of my work is now on the rock crusher.

I and most of my friends shoot Goex 2f or the Swiss equivalent. As mentioned, Goex likes compression.  Start with a load around 68 grains and work up. Right now I am getting my best groups with 70 grains Goex 2F.  I don't use a grease cookie. The only ones that I personally know that do are 45- 110 and 45-120 shooters that need the extra help.  Make sure you choose a bullet design that has adequate lube grooves and you'll be alright with 45-70. Also use a wad, card or plastic. I use 0.03 [veggie fiber] card ordered from Buffalo Arms. Assure that the base of the bullet is clean before you seat it on the card or the card will stick to the excess lube and significantly impact your accuracy.  As mentioned before - measure so you do not get any air space.

Although you can get the 68 - 70 grains in you case without a drop tube, you will find that the drop tube provides the most consistent accuracy. It's a good investment for consistent groups.
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