Author Topic: Open Letter to Chaparral Arms - Winchester 1876  (Read 4309 times)

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Offline John Boy

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Open Letter to Chaparral Arms - Winchester 1876
« on: August 08, 2007, 04:51:23 PM »
Here is a letter sent to Nick Ecker at Charter Arms and a copy to Dock Hauck an Karl Weber, Chaparral Arms - Germany.  Why?  There are issues with this replica in 45-75:

Curlew Bay Club of Seaville
Established 1874 – ASSRA Affiliated Club
Dedicated to the preservation of traditional pre-1900 target shooting and
the rifles used in the sport
William Roth Jr, Trustee; BSEE; VFW; American Legion; NRA Life/GE; SASS Life
PO Box 383, Ocean View, NJ 08230-0383
(609) 624-0571

   August 4, 2007

Customer Service Dept, Attn: Nick
Charco 2000, Inc.
281 Canal St.
Shelton, CT 06484

Subject: M1876 Rifle S/N W760858

Dear Nick

      Today I unceremoniously received a Chaparral M1876 breech bolt assembly in a padded envelope with no return address or paperwork.  Contrary to what you may think I want your M1876 rifle to succeed which is why I have taken the time to write this letter.  I assume that this is a different breech bolt assembly than the one that I sent to you for two reasons.  First, the assembly/construction number (942) is different than that on my remaining parts (633).  Second, the link pin in this breech bolt is only finger tight which is correct instead of requiring a hammer and punch to drive it out as did mine.

      Upon inspection, I noticed that the breech bolt firing pin tip hole is very close to centered and straight.  I reassembled the rifle for some testing with empty fire formed cases with the correct 0.056” rim thickness.  With this breech bolt the nominal headspace is 0.0015” to 0.002”.  I fired four primers without any misfires.  However, the hits are now somewhat above center.  I closely observed the breech bolt as it reached battery and noticed that it tended to rise as the extractor slid up the barrel extractor groove.  I re-primed one of the cases for another test and this time I pressed down slightly on the breech bolt which caused the extractor to slightly rise during discharge.  The hit on this primer was very close to being centered.

      I do not want make this letter any longer than required but I will provide a little information on another rifle that can have a similar problem which is related to the Winchester M1866 and is called the Swiss Vetterli. Back in 1866/1867 Winchester made an enlarged M1866 that chambered a cartridge very similar to the 45-60WCF for Switzerland which in reality was very likely the M1876 prototype.  The Swiss liked this rifle very much but did not like the lever.  Vetterli redesigned the Winchester bolt with a longer round body so that it was a rear locking lug “turn-bolt” and changed the cartridge lifter operating lever so that it would be activated by a slot in the bolt bottom.  The front end of the bolt, cartridge lifter and tubular magazine were basically the same as that made by Winchester.  The Vetterli bolt did not have the bolt lower rim support.  Switzerland negotiated with Winchester and obtained the rights to use the basic Winchester design inn their “production Swiss Vetterli Rifles”.  Many of the Swiss Vetterli rifles were changed from rimfire to centerfire and occasionally you will come across one where the extractor groove is not cut quite deep enough resulting in poor extraction.  As a side note, the “41 Swiss” cartridge is also made from reformed 348Win brass.

      After trying the depressed bolt test I got out a contemporary rifle which is a relatively new Uberti M1873 that does have the breech bolt lower rim support.  Without a case in the chamber the M1873 bolt rises just like your M1876 but drops back down when the lower rim support engages the barrel lower groove.  With a case locked into the bolt between the extractor and lower rim support, the bolt does not rise at all.

      The original Winchester M1876 that I had out to show John Corney and Chris Wyman just what the breech bolt lower rim support does, did not exhibit any bolt rise when in battery.  If your rifle had the breech bolt lower rim support I do not believe there would by any problem with off-center primer hits unless the firing pin bore is drilled off center.  Since no one seems to know why the breech bolt lower rim support has been removed from your rifles I will speculate.  I believe that the lower rim support as designed was too short and without sufficient thickness to allow milling a slight taper on the front of it.  I would guess that as the extractor rode over the case rim and caused the breech bolt to rise, the lower rim support hit the case and thus prevented full closure.

      An alternate solution for rifles that exhibit high primer hits would be to slightly increase the extractor groove depth.  Based on measurements taken on both Buffalo Arms cases and Jamison cases, the case web thickness is more than sufficient to allow this modification.  I am enclosing a new copy of the 45-75 WCF case comparison drawing for you reference.  In closing, I would like you to send me a parts/price list for the M1876 so that I have it here for future reference.


   Sincerely


   William Roth Jr.

                

Regards
John Boy

Offline John Boy

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Re: Open Letter to Chaparral Arms - Winchester 1876
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 02:16:20 PM »
Found out today, that Chaparral Arms Italy is the owner, Nicola Nauti, ( aka Palmetto Arms ) and behind him there is the old owner of Armi San Marco : Angelo Buffoli
Palmetto Arms was  sent a copy of the letter also
Regards
John Boy

Offline rusty shackelford

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Re: Open Letter to Chaparral Arms - Winchester 1876
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 10:45:07 AM »
any follow up on this rifle  yes i am aware of the age of this post 
but i just got a rifle my self with the same problems .

rusty s

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Open Letter to Chaparral Arms - Winchester 1876
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2011, 07:04:00 PM »
    Earth to Mr. Roth:   Nice letter . . . but they don't friggin care!  You might as well have sent it to the Pope.