The dreaded FTF!!!

[jabey9210]

I just recently purchased a .280 barrel and shimmed it so it fits perfectly it took a shim on only one side of the lug which the factory barrel that came with the gun had to be shimmed in the exact spot so I'm guessing it's the receiver.  Anyways I have not messed with the trigger and after loading some rounds I've gotten a few FTF's.  Now my question is one I'm using Winchester nickel plated brass cause it was all I could locally find and it seems that it accepts the primers a little deep in the pocket has anyone ever experienced this problem?  And two is it possible that my chamber is a bit long and after firing the brass if I neck size only It should take care of it right?  Don't know but am hoping it's a simple issue I almost did a trigger job on it while waiting for the new barrel to arrive and am glad I didn't because I would have second guessed my trigger work first probably.

[quickdtoo]

Lots of info in the FAQs on FTFs, replacing the hammer spring is at the top of the list as well as several other options related to the firing pin strike. Too light of trigger pull can cause problems too, the transfer bar doesn't stay up if you don't pull the trigger to the rear all the way each time.

You can use different primers to help with the deep primer pockets, primers aren't all the same, Win primers are the tallest, if primers aren't fully seated, they won't pop until the second strike after the first strike seats it.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

You can seat bullets long into the lands to eliminate the excess headspace if the chamber is cut long, you can also form a false shoulder by necking up and then FL sizing just enough to push the shoulder back to eliminate the excess headspace, that's covered in the FAQs in handloading for improved chambers.

Tim

[jabey9210]

I've read the facts about ftf's like I said I haven't done anything to the trigger and the receiver itself has only shot about 100 to 150 rounds total at the very most so I would think it would be a chamber or component problem.  I've tried pulling the trigger hard and it still doesn't do anything and the firing pin is leaving a fairly deep hole in the primer but i guess not deep enough.  I thought about seating into the lands but wasn't sure how far I dare go with a handi.  I was just trying to work up loads then I was gonna mess with seating depths.  But it did however shoot right at an inch at 100yrds when I could get three in a row to go off. I will probably try just bumping the shoulders back and see if that helps I've always heard about the dreadful FTF's but have never experienced any until yesterday.  I will also try WIN primers I didn't know that primers were different heights I guess it's just something I never thought to check.  By the way I'm using CCI's and after setting the first primer I thought it looked awfully deep and when we went to shoot my buddy picked up a bullet and that was the first thing out of his mouth.  I just wonder if my primer pockets are too deep.

[gcrank1]

CCI is about the hardest primer and (IIRC) has been mentioned more often than others as being involved in FTF issues. BTW, you didnt use LP primers by mistake instead of LR; they will seat deeper.
Compare a primer indent from a case that goes off without trouble to one that has FTF. It will be a clue.
When you say you shimmed 'one side' just where do you mean the shim is?

[jabey9210]

I shimmed the under lug because of lateral movement but only one side.  When the barrel is on there without a shim it will only move side to side in one direction so I shimmed just the side of the hinge point that was loose.  You made me think so I had to check but according to the case of primers I just bought it says they are LR 200's.  When compared to the fired primer the indent is much deeper on the fired primer but the primer is flattened out slightly due to pressure so it's hard to decide if there was anything different between the two.  I've checked and checked and rechecked my load and I think it has either something to do with primer pocket depth or maybe a long chamber. Does any one know where I can get some specs for the proper depth of the primer pocket?

[quickdtoo]

Here ya go.

Tim

http://www.lasc.us/primerchart.htm

[jabey9210]

thanks quick it says that the SAAMI specs are .128" to .132" I just checked 6 new unfired cases and they are consistently .137"  at the edge of the pocket do you think that is too deep and what do I do about it seems how I just bought 100 new cases and have about 75 left.

[quickdtoo]

Contact Winchester  (800-333-3288) and have them replace the brass, or increase pin projection by removing material from the frame or the hammer, but be aware that if it's too much, it may cause a problem with a different barrel, I've gone as high as .063" on my 260 Rem Handi, that's .063" from the standing breech face when the hammer is all the way forward while the trigger is held back.

Tim

[jabey9210]

I appreciate it Tim I think I'll give winchester a call I don't wanna mess with removing material.  It's just kind of a bummer I'm not a fan of the nickel plated cases.  This is the first time I've ever messed with them and some of the cases I can barely get in and out of the shell holder on my press. Is that a common issue with nickel plated cases?

[gcrank1]

Make sure you are not applying too much pressure when seating primers and flattening them deep in the hole; they should only need be flush at the back. You might find that WW primers fit the cases better, but out of spec is out of spec, otherwise what is SAAMI for.

[jabey9210]

I agree with the out of specs I just loaded up 25 more and just put the primers in with my hand primer instead of the press just make sure I'm not smashing them then I seated the bullets into the lands as far as I felt they would come back out so I'm off to see if I have any more ftf's I think at the very least I will see if I can exchange the unopened bag of nickel plated brass just because like I said some of them I can barely get in and out of the shellholder in the press and they spill powder trying to get them in so I end up re measuring powder and it is just a pain.

[cjrjck]

I would eliminate the least costly suspect and then go from there. If you cannot find some regular 280 brass then try to neck down a few 30-06 cases or neck up some 270, just a few, and see if they FTF.

[mtbugle]

I would think a straight edge accross a round in chamber would reveal if too deep shoulder issue.  and accross the primer in cartridge would reveal if primer seated deep. Also measure pin protrusion as tim mentioned.
thanks don.

[trotterlg]

Load a full length sized and primed case in the chamber and fire the primer.  The primer will back out of the pocket by the amount of head space you have, now just measue how high the primer is sticking above the rear of the case and you can tell your exact headspace.  Larry

[jabey9210]

Well I went to the range with my into the lands loads and out of 25 I didn't have a single miss fire.  Maybe the press set the primers too deep or seating them into the lands took out the long chamber play.  Either way I'll be hand priming neck sizing and setting them into the lands.  Hopefully that works.  Now my next problem I had different loads set up to find the best group. One group was just over 1 inch with 3 shots at 100 yards.  All the others the first shot was two inches higher than the second and the third but on almost all of them the second and the third shot were touching or close too it.  What would be the cause of that.  I have done a full length bedding on the forend.  Now before I bedded the stock it was the opposite the first two were almost always touching with the third being a ways away which I accounted for it being the forend or barrel temperature.  Now when I shot today I would let the barrel cool a couple of minutes between shots so it makes no sense why the first shot was always high with the second and third of a particular load be touching while all shots getting the same amount of cool down time.    If anybody has a pointer or two out of the normal issues let me know please.   Also I just checked the firing pin protrusion and it actually comes out farther than two of my other Handi's so that shouldn't be an issue.

thanks
Jeremy

[oldsoldja]

Hoo Rah

[OldSchoolRanger]

If you switch to Federal Primers after you use up this batch of CCI's, I think a lot of the problems will go away. Federal primers are the most sensitive, and usually go off with even light strikes. This was my experience when I was shooting PPC.  Even with a very light hammer on my PPC gun, the rounds consistently went off.

Give Federal Primers a try, using your press, I think you'll be happy with the results.

[gcrank1]

If you want to prime on the press you may just develope the 'feel' for not seating too deeply, or you may be able to make a stop for the handle (or throw of the press) so it just seats flush.