Hunting Ranges - In-Lines

[Rick Teal]

I had an interesting conversation a week ago, and would be interested if some of you would like to weigh in on it.

To put this in perspective, we both hunt Eastern Canada.  i hunt the "bush" primarily, while my friend tends to spend most of his time in agricultiral areas.

My inclination, when hunting with an in-line is to keep my shooting distance at a minimum.  Because of the fact I only have one shot, that the large bore of a M/L leads to rainbow trajectories and the time-to-target of the relatively low velocity of the M/L can allow the animal to move and put the impact point to be in an undesirable location, I prefer a shot at 75 yds or less (much less if possible), and absolutely wouldn't shoot at much more than 100 yds (unless I'm trying to dispatch an already wounded animal).  If an animal is outside this comfort zone I tend to pass or "hunt myself" (stalk) within range.

The fellow I was talking to thought that in general, if the gun is supposed to be effective out to (say) 250 yds, most guys would take the shot at those ranges.

I know there are people out there who would chance any shot, but I'd like to know if you feel my friends opinion is accurate or not?  Also, what are your shooting parameters?

Thanks!

I plan to post this on a couple of other boards so you may come across it elsewhere.

[Muddly]

The critical thing about long range hinting with anything but ESPICIALLY muzzleloaders is range confirmation, not estimation. My best loads for my Black Diamond XR .50 cal drop about 8 inches at 150 but are down 22 inches at 200 yards.The rifle is aperture sighted and zeroed on at 100 yards. I've confirmed these figures at the range. I'm shooting a .45 cal 250 gr Hornady XTP at 1550 fps. Groups at 200 are generally( depending on the wind...) in the 3 to 4 inch range for 3 rounds, although I have shot groups under 2 inches on VERY calm days. Long range shots require alot of practice before the attempt is made. The target isn't paper, but has blood and breath in it. A range finder would be an ethical necessity and not just checking drop tables and crossing of fingers before sending it down range. Would I take a 200 yard shot. No, as i dont yet own a range finder. But when i do... Having said that, I do most of my hunting at 100 yards or less. My longest muzzleloader shot to date is 115 yards and shortest was 15 feet. Guess which one was the bigger thrill?

[kctibs]

I don't think you are giving the modern inline the credit it is due.  I do agree I get much more satisfaction when I get up close. But I do practice regularly to 200 yds and know what my gun, load and abilities will perform at different ranges. And I don't use no range finder with practice and experience you can judge distance just as good as any range finder.  Especially under a couple hundred yds.  Now with my old side lock percussion cap I  would keep shots under a 100 yds for sure. With the modern inline and newer powder and bullets opens up a lot more opportunity in shooting. What is most important no matter what anybody thinks is shoot on how you feel comfortable and to your abilities.
Good luck and happy hunting.

[1sourdough]

 I usually hunt IL with my tricked out Knight. My 'sweet spot' is 75 yards & under, just put the X-hairs right where I want the bullet to go. Yes muzzle-loaders can reach out to 150+ yards but one has to practice & know the range of the shot. Some do spend the time to work things out, then we have those that end up with a tracking job to an fruitless ending. Last Fall I took 5 deer & a coyote, all down within sight.

[DennyRoark]

I have a Knight .45 Disc XT that shoots 200gr spire points (Shockwaves and Hydra-cons) to a 175 yd dead zero with devestating results.  At 200, I need to confirm range, as bullets are really starting to drop off.  With a known 250 yd range, I can make clean kills, but hold over is enromous and bullet drop becomes a serious factor.  I won't shoot over 175 with out a range finder.  175 and under for me is a known distance from Hunting from the same blind for years.  My 50 new style CVA Optima shoots nearly the same with 250gr spire points with a dead zero of 150 yds. and about a 4" hold over at 175.   Again, range confirmation is the rule past that 175yd known distance.  At those ranges, I only shoot at standing, somewhat relaxed deer and have huntied with an inline exclusely for many years now (no rifles in Ohio!).  Lots of known distance range time is essential for long range shooting! 

With "pistol" bullets, 150 is the absolute max for me....

[nhdog]

I agree with 1sourdough, just because a gun is capable dose not mean the shooter is. Each fall at our gun range we open up to the public to sight in their rifles. I constantly listen to many "hunters" tell about only taking" head shots" as not to ruin the meat or of the long range shots they made last year ,yet when they sit down at the bench after one shot they start changing their scope settings and spend a box of shells chasing a bullet hole all over the paper and in the end saying well that's good enough. I really get a kick out of trying to get some of them to take a shot off hand or any way off the bag, rarely will they or if they do they are lucky to hit the paper. Mind you we only have a 100 yard range.
  There are many who  can and do shoot well and at long ranges. I call over 100 yards long range because of where I and how I usually hunt.I have hunted both in the high country as well as out on the prairie, and made 250-350 yard shots BUT spent a lot of time prepairing. Western hunters have the advantage because of growing up in an area where it is the norm but many eastern hunters do not hunt in such an environment.
 Long story made short ,it's not the gun but the shooter.
 Anyone not able to make the shot in and under a hunting situation has no right taking the shot regardless of the guns capability.

[luckydawg13]

i shoot a encore & omega the omega will keep 1" group at 100yards all day long with 150gr of pyrodex and a 250gr shock wave
i did shoot a deer last year at 175 yards but i had a good rest and no wind but i don't think i would try it agen
 

[tcencore3006]

I shot a deer at about 220 yards with my muzzleloader 2 years ago but I wouldn't recommend that for anybody.  I have the balistics memorized for my gun and know what kind of drop I am looking at with that range.  I do think 250 is doable.  I just don't think it is doable for most people.  I am not sure I would do 250.  Personally as a rule, I don't shoot much past 200.  Anything over 100 yards has to be off a solid rest.

[LanceR]

Rick, I guess it is fair to say that the exact maximum range for a given hunter in any specific situation is....it depends.

A very disturbing trend here in the US is that a couple of nationwide surveys have shown that the average muzzleloading hunter fires their gun about 6 times a year.  That's not 6 trips to the range-that's 6 shots.  They are often the folks you hear bragging about taking a shot at a running deer at 230 yards etc.

When I first came back to muzzle loading after a 10 year absence my thoughts were colored by years of instructing the NRA basic muzzleloading rifle and shotgun courses with flintlock and percussion guns and bore sized round balls and conicals.  I thought a basic .50 in-line with Pyrodex pellets and Powerbelts was a great combination since they grouped around 2" at 100 yards. 

I limited myself to 100 yards for a few years and then had something of an epiphany when I discovered sabots with smaller diameter more aerodynamically efficient bullets.   Suddenly consistent 150 yard shots seemed to be the best thing since sliced bread.

Then I found out about the Savage 10ML II smokeless powder rifles which are legal in NY.  I bought one and if I want to go to max powder charges it is a legitimate 220 yard gun with the bullet going no more than 3" above or below the spot I place the crosshairs.  The gun is certainly accurate enough and hard hitting enough to cleanly take deer and black bears at 300 yards.

The issue for me is that where I hunt 100 yards is a long way and 200 yards is a very, very long way.  At longer ranges range estimation and calling the wind are important and, frankly, most hunters have no idea what a 10 MPH wind is going to do to their bullets path at 200 yards.

Like others I often use a 9" paper plate for a target and shoot from offhand, supported and sitting positions.  The plate is smaller than the heart/lung area of the smallest legal deer and if I can keep all my shots on the plate at any given range than I'm good-to-go.

As others have written, there is no substitute for shooting at all of the ranges at which you may want to hunt.  A technique going back to my Army days for learning to estimate range is to estimate the range to things as you go about daily life and as you walk toward them, pace off the distance.  All you need to know is your pace count for the type of terrain.  Folks are usually surprised to find out how fast they can become very proficient at range estimation but you need to work on it.  Like many skills it is very perishable.

I carry a laser rangefinder, especially when hunting an open area or stand for the first time but don't use it much when actually hunting since it requires too much movement.

If you want to flatten the trajectory the two ways to do it are to speed up the bullet and use the most ballistically efficient bullet you can put your hands on. 

Blackhorn 209 is a more energetic propellant than Pyrodex or Triple-7 and does not have the fouling issues of those powders.  BH 209 will usually give you about a 8-10% velocity increase using less powder.  We use it for my son's .45 caliber in-line and really like it.  I've never used it for bore sized conicals and don't know if it is recommended for them.

I like Barnes MZ Expanders and Barnes Original semi-spitzers for longer ranges but since most of my hunting is in country where 100 yards is a long way I usually load 300 grain Hornady non-magnum XPTs and push them at around 1900 FPS.  That is a 170 yard load with a 6" mean point blank range (3' above or below the line of sight) and a stone cold killer.   The important thing about that load is that a 10 MPH wind will push it over 10" at 170 yards.  Clearly at longer ranges the ability to call the wind is at least as important as calling the range.  At 170 yards the trajectory allows me a lot of vertical wobble area and still get the bullet into the heart/lungs but a 10 MPH breeze and a blown (or not even considered) wind call could mean a clean miss in front of the deer or a two day tracking chore with a gut shot deer.

If I crank the same bullet up to 2300 FPS the windage at 170 yards only goes down by 1" and there is a substantial recoil penalty.

If I switch to a Barnes Original .458 Semi-spitzer at 2300 FPS the 6" MPBR is now 220 yards and the 10 MPH windage way out there is about 8" so it is also clear that the velocity and ballistic coefficient of the bullet have a lot to do with controlling the possible windage and range estimation issues at any range.  As a point of comparison the more efficient Barnes bullet at the higher velocity has 4" less windage at the 170 yard range I limit the 300 grain Hornady XPTs to.

Since I am familiar with the ballistics of my gun and have 5-6 bullet choices on the shelf I sometime switch bullets and velocities to reduce potential errors on windy days.  Since most of my hunting is done here on our farm I can wait to see what the weather is in the morning and use whatever the weather and the potential ranges where I'm heading are.

Lance

[sabotloader]

LanceR

Blackhorn 209 is a more energetic propellant than Pyrodex or Triple-7 and does not have the fouling issues of those powders.  BH 209 will usually give you about a 8-10% velocity increase using less powder.  We use it for my son's .45 caliber in-line and really like it.  I've never used it for bore sized conicals and don't know if it is recommended for them.

Basically i would suggest you are a little bit off base in most of this statement.  Granted it really is the common thought amoung many; but BH-209 is a smokeless 'progressive burning' powder, because of it progressive buring properties is not always more energetic than T7, expecially T7-3f.   In most cases T7 will produce more FPS grain for grain with the lighter bullets than does BH-209 until you reach near maximum loads.  The switch occurs much quicker when you get to heavier bullets that take longer to get out of the barrel and the 'progressive burning properties' of BH begin to really perform.  I usually say that a bullet weight of 260 grains is the break even point and certainly with a 300 grain bullet and maximum loads you will get more FPS with BH, usually 100-150 FPS more.

Here is a velocity chart using a 45 cal rifle shooting 40-200 grain bullets..  You can see that it takes BH awhile before it catches up with the velocity of T7



With a 300 grain bullet the catch-up occurs much faster.  And it appears that BH will give a 100 fps increase with a heafty 120 grain load.

[tcencore3006]

A very disturbing trend here in the US is that a couple of nationwide surveys have shown that the average muzzleloading hunter fires their gun about 6 times a year.  That's not 6 trips to the range-that's 6 shots.  They are often the folks you hear bragging about taking a shot at a running deer at 230 yards etc.

I know I said I took a long shot.  It was not at a running deer.  I also shoot my gun year round.  My sabots all touch holes at 100 yards.  I just want to assure you that I am not that guy that Rick is referencing.   If someone is not proficient at long shots then they should not even be attempted in the field.

[LanceR]

Rick I was absolutely not meaning to imply that you had taken a shot you should not have and am sorry that my clumsy wording left that impression. 

I was referring to the  folks who shoot a few shots a year out of their in-line and then assume that reading the ballistic data from a powder manufacturer or bullet maker will let them figure out what is going to happen at long distances.

Regardless of whether they are shooting an in-line or a centerfire rifle most hunters have very little idea what wind will do to their shot at longer ranges.

Sabotloader, thanks for the info. 

Lance

 

[tcencore3006]

You wrote Rick, but I believe you were responding to me.  Don't worry about it.  I agree with what you said so not apoloty is needed.  I just wanted you to know that I am not a six shot a year guy that takes dumb shots.  If I don't know I can drop it, I won't shoot at it.