Author Topic: Your Openion (Read 2506 times)

Brett · « **Reply #60 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:17:13 PM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on May 02, 2011, 04:08:35 PM

Quote from: Sourdough on May 02, 2011, 03:11:12 PM
I'll repeat this, at no time do I think any lives were in danger. If they fell in all they had to do was stand up. The Chena is not that deep in that area, only waist deep at the most. The kid in a later article today said he could have stepped in and wadded out. If he had of knowen he would have been arrested and spend the night in jail he would have gladly wadded out. No one thought it was a big deal till the Cops arrested him. The police even said they were not going to arrest him while he was out on the ice. They lied just so they could get their hands on him so he would not jump in and wade out on the other side of the river.

Again the police were out of line, big time.
I understand what you're saying but what if some smaller kids saw them and decided it was a cool thing to do? The outcome might have been tragic. The cops probably over reacted but the kid did need to understand it wasn't something he should have done and often just telling someone so doesn't sink in.

So now we should start arresting people based on "what ifs". Sounds like the ploy that the anti gun lobby uses. What if honest, model citizens who legally own guns all suddenly went mad and decided to go on shooting rampages. Lets arrest all legal gun owners now and avoid this catastrophe.

dukkillr · « **Reply #61 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:44:06 PM »

Quote from: Brett on May 02, 2011, 05:17:13 PM

Quote from: Spirithawk on May 02, 2011, 04:08:35 PM
Quote from: Sourdough on May 02, 2011, 03:11:12 PM
I'll repeat this, at no time do I think any lives were in danger. If they fell in all they had to do was stand up. The Chena is not that deep in that area, only waist deep at the most. The kid in a later article today said he could have stepped in and wadded out. If he had of knowen he would have been arrested and spend the night in jail he would have gladly wadded out. No one thought it was a big deal till the Cops arrested him. The police even said they were not going to arrest him while he was out on the ice. They lied just so they could get their hands on him so he would not jump in and wade out on the other side of the river.

Again the police were out of line, big time.
I understand what you're saying but what if some smaller kids saw them and decided it was a cool thing to do? The outcome might have been tragic. The cops probably over reacted but the kid did need to understand it wasn't something he should have done and often just telling someone so doesn't sink in.

So now we should start arresting people based on "what ifs". Sounds like the ploy that the anti gun lobby uses. What if honest, model citizens who legally own guns all suddenly went mad and decided to go on shooting rampages. Lets arrest all legal gun owners now and avoid this catastrophe.

People could be hurt with those guns!

Hooker · « **Reply #62 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:13:40 PM »

Was the kid breaking any laws by playing around on the ice? Hmm
But so far we've had examples like throwing bowling balls off of a overpass. That is illegal whether anyone gets hurt or not.
And I lost count of all the what ifs. What if you were out shooting your guns and a stray bullet didn't kill someone?
What if you were driving in your car and you didn't lose control and run over a bunch of kids?
What if some little kid saw you driving your car and thought it was the cool thing to do and he tried it?
The putting the fireman in danger argument is stupid that's what fireman do it's their job. Thank them and thank God for them.

Pat

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #63 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:14:44 PM »

Taxes pay for their response time. Whay a fine?
Nobody was hurt.
Getting a record for his actions was way out of the park. Just setting him up so when/IF he does something really stupid he has "priors"? (reinforcing the foundations of a police state??)
If anything needed to be done, maybe just have the kid show up at the fire station to help wash the equipment for a week or two.

Plus one FW.

Sourdough · « **Reply #64 on:** May 02, 2011, 07:08:17 PM »

This became the topic today on the local radio talk show. I found out some things I did not know before.

1. The water was so shallow, the Fire Dept guys got stuck twice and had get out and carry their inflatable across two gravel bars.
2. None of the kids called the police, the kids were not concerned because they knew the water was shallow, only a couple of feet deep at the most.
3. The ice rider was not concerned, he was just going to ride it out and get off when it grounded itself or got stuck on a gravel bar. His buddies had canoes and could come and get him if things got to that point.
4. Someone in a building across the river called 911 to report kids playing out on the ice. That is what got the Cops on the scene.
5. When the rider saw the police arrive he asked if they were going to arrest him for being out on the ice. The police told him no, he would not be arrested. (They lied)
6. Before going in for his arraignment the young man was told if he did not plead guilty he would have to spend the rest of the weekend in jail, and possibly more time.
7. The prosecution made him think his only way out of jail was to plead guilty period. He was so traumatized it was easy to convince him to plead guilty.

OK now, yes this young man was 18. But you have to remember, he was still in high school. All his peers were 17 and 16. We are all a product of our environment. This young man's environment was that of a high school student. Even thou he was physically 18 he thought and acted just like his peers. In short mentally he was 17. Not a single person calling into the radio show backed the actions of the police. All callers thought the police action was uncalled for. Several people called for the Mayor to get involved and slow his police officers down. This is not the first time the people of Fairbanks feel the police force used excessive force and actions in situations where it was not warranted. Only one person thought the young man should have been billed for the rescue. Everyone else said "No that is what we pay taxes for. Also the police have never arrested snow mobilers who have to get rescued every year out on the same ice, up and down the Chena. The drunks that fall in don't get arrested, they just get a ride to the detox center. The question being asked the Mayor, Why was such heavy handed tactics used in this incident.

wreckhog · « **Reply #65 on:** May 03, 2011, 12:13:20 AM »

Laws to the contrary, nothing magical happens in the mind or body on the 18th birthday. Left to his own devices, the kid will probably be dead from some other stupidity soon. Prison will make a man of him.

MGMorden · « **Reply #66 on:** May 03, 2011, 02:51:53 AM »

Quote from: wreckhog on May 03, 2011, 12:13:20 AM

Prison will make a man of him.

Hardly - nor has prison even been on the table during this whole discussion. Prison will make a hardened criminal out of just about anyone sent there. Don't be so naive as to buy into the whole "rehabilitation" nonsense of prison. It's there to keep dangerous criminals away from the rest of us - nothing more. If you're not ruined before you go in, then you're ruined after you come out. That's why ideally prison, at least should be, reserved for offenders who have committed serious crimes - essentially, the people who are too far gone already. Murderers, rapists, thiefs? Sure throw them in prison. Some kid playing on the ice? He'll be in the group of murderers, rapists, and/or thiefs afterwards if he's sent there.

Honestly, yeah, there's no magical 'switch' that flips at 18, but the reality is that almost all of us have done a few stupid things at that age. Assuming you don't actually hurt anyone, I say let him learn from his mistakes (ie, don't play on the ice anymore). THAT will "make of man of him".

magooch · « **Reply #67 on:** May 03, 2011, 06:39:13 AM »

I want to know where it is written that police officers aren't allowed to use good judgement and common sense. I'm pretty sure most of them did a lot worse things than take a little ride on a chunk of ice when they were kids. Man, if I got caught for some of the things I did when I was a kid, I'd still be in the clink by today's standards.

The better good is served when police use restraint and can see when benevolence is a much greater benefit to all than being a chickenshirt, hard--s, dipwad. I've had a few encounters with cops who were way out of line and had no business being allowed to wear the uniform; I've also had encounters with good guys who didn't believe that every other member of society was a potential inmate.

The last one was one of the former, who stuck a ticket on my window for improper parking in a basically empty park. The way I was parked broke no park rules and inconvenienced no one. The idiot cop wrote the $157 ticket and checked it as a moving violation. Lucky for me, I'm retired and didn't have to take off from work in order to show up in court. It's common practice for some of the cops to write a ticket knowing that most folks will just pay it rather than taking off from work to fight it.

When I explained to the judge why I parked the way I did, he agreed with me. The absolute most any decent cop should have done would have been to put a note on my window asking that I not park that way. I don't park that way any more, but I see plenty of others with RVs, etc. who do. They haven't met the idiot cop yet.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #68 on:** May 03, 2011, 07:53:50 AM »

Well, I ain't saying nuthin either way... $:-\$ And I ain't giving my opinion since I ain't getting paid for it...

But the law says:

Fairbanks, Alaska, Code of Ordinances

Sec. 46-41. - Disorderly conduct.

(a) No person may recklessly block the entry or exit of any public or private building.

(b) No person may recklessly insult, taunt or challenge another person in a manner likely to offend or provoke a violent response.

(Code 1960, § 6.201)

Well, that can't be what the kid was charged under, must be the state law...

State law reference— Disorderly conduct, AS 11.61.110.

AS 11.61.110. Disorderly Conduct.

(a) A person commits the crime of disorderly conduct if,

(1) with intent to disturb the peace and privacy of another not physically on the same premises or with reckless disregard that the conduct is having that effect after being informed that it is having that effect, the person makes unreasonably loud noise;

(2) in a public place or in a private place of another without consent, and with intent to disturb the peace and privacy of another or with reckless disregard that the conduct is having that effect after being informed that it is having that effect, the person makes unreasonably loud noise;

(3) in a public place, when a crime has occurred, the person refuses to comply with a lawful order of a peace officer to disperse;

(4) in a private place, the person refuses to comply with an order of a peace officer to leave premises in which the person has neither a right of possession nor the express invitation to remain of a person having a right of possession;

(5) in a public or private place, the person challenges another to fight or engages in fighting other than in self-defense;

(6) the person recklessly creates a hazardous condition for others by an act which has no legal justification or excuse; or

(7) the offender intentionally exposes the offender's buttock or anus to another with reckless disregard for the offensive or insulting effect the act may have on that person.

(b) As used in this section, "noise" is "unreasonably loud" if, considering the nature and purpose of the defendant's conduct and the circumstances known to the defendant, including the nature of the location and the time of day or night, the conduct involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would follow in the same situation. "Noise" does not include speech that is constitutionally protected.

(c) Disorderly conduct is a class B misdemeanor and is punishable as authorized in AS 12.55 except that a sentence of imprisonment, if imposed, shall be for a definite term of not more than 10 days.

Well there ya go! The kid must have been charged under the state law; looks like subsection (6) to me based on what this news article says:

Fairbanks Teenager Was Rescued From Chena River
May 01, 2011|By KTUU.com | Channel 2 News

ANCHORAGE, Alaska — A Fairbanks teenager was rescued from an ice floe traveling down the Chena River.

Fairbanks police say 18-year-old Michael Poland, and a group of friends were jumping on river ice Friday night when a 10-foot by 15-foot piece with Poland on it broke off and floated away on the river.

The Fairbanks daily news-miner reports Poland was rescued after about a quarter-mile ride by firefighters in an inflatable boat.

When he reached the shore Fairbanks police charged him with disorderly conduct for creating a dangerous situation for the firefighters that rescued him.

But I would be willing to bet there is Alaskan Case Law that would support a position that this young man's actions arguably did not "recklessly create a hazardous condition for others" and there is no legal nexus between the individual's act and any danger to the fire department personnel.

Now maybe if he had intentionally broken off the chunk of ice he was on, planning to crash through a bunch of "Polar Bears" (the human kind that swim in the middle of the winter) who were gaily spashing around in the river downstream of him... maybe you could get the intent of the law to reach...

Casull · « **Reply #69 on:** May 03, 2011, 08:05:41 AM »

Sounds like an opinion to me.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #70 on:** May 03, 2011, 08:12:13 AM »

Naw $:-\$ Just one a them darn analogies!

I knowed I shoulda never added it when I wrote it!

Casull · « **Reply #71 on:** May 03, 2011, 08:15:19 AM »

Mohawk · « **Reply #72 on:** May 03, 2011, 01:26:27 PM »

Just MHO but if the young adults parents didn't convey strong enough that fooling around on thin ice was not safe by the age of 18 then the judge may have got the message across. There was a law broken thus the judge found cause for the sentence. That judge may have, in the future, saved his life by letting him know what he did was wrong. Otherwise elect lawmakers that will make his actions legal. LE and the local judge don't make laws.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #73 on:** May 03, 2011, 03:40:21 PM »

Does Alaska arrest mountain or rock climbers who get into trouble and have to be rescued? What about a back country skier or snow boarder buried in a avalance cause by their skiing on an unstable slope? It would seem that a mountain rescue would put the emergency responders in much greater jeopardy than a kid floating on a mini iceberg.

BB

Sourdough · « **Reply #74 on:** May 03, 2011, 04:35:29 PM »

I talked to the Mayor of Fairbanks Jerry Cleworth today. I discussed this issue with him. I told him how this one police officer has undone all the efforts the Fairbanks police have made to teach the kids of Fairbanks that the police are their friends. Jerry, (He is a business owner in town and I know him personally) told me he has had a total public outcry about this incident, and he is looking into it. He too feels the officer went far overboard on the arrest. Jerry said once he has looked into it he intends to do something about it. He is at odds with his police chief over this.

Hooker · « **Reply #75 on:** May 03, 2011, 04:38:36 PM »

Sounds like the prosecutor is guilty of coercion.
And the police as usual know as much about laws as they do brain surgery.
Instead of taking the opportunity to promote some good will toward the younger generation these knot heads only drove the wedge in deeper.
It's no wonder that folks have no respect for Law Enforcement save for a small and ever shirnking minority they deserve none.

Pat

Dand · « **Reply #76 on:** May 04, 2011, 12:09:45 AM »

I could go either way on the arrest, but the overnight in jail and 10 day sentence, suspended or not seems off the charts. Bill the kid sure. But like the kid said, had he known what was coming he'd have called his friends who had boats. Fairbanks police have not always had a high reputation. Sourdough, this officer sounds like he might be related to the NPS officers of the Yukon River fame. Better get Seekins looking into this matter too.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #77 on:** May 04, 2011, 03:00:31 AM »

After reading AlLaws response and long consideration it seems the cop was pizzed because he didn't get to ride in the boat !

wreckhog · « **Reply #78 on:** May 04, 2011, 03:52:16 AM »

If the water was so shallow why didn't't dumbass walk to hire. Prison will do the adult 18 year old a world of good.

gypsyman · « **Reply #79 on:** May 04, 2011, 04:23:59 AM »

Sounds like what happened out on Lake Erie 2 winters back. Somewhere between 25 and 30 ice fisherman got stranded on an ice flow, that broke off. The local sheriff and some volunteers had to go out on air boats to get them. In an interview, the sheriff was mad, and kept saying he wanted to charge them with something. By the way, all the ice fisherman where well over 18. Trouble is, they broke no law. So couldn't do a thing. As far as sending the young man to prison, why run up more tax money. Make him do some community work and call it even. gypsyman

magooch · « **Reply #80 on:** May 04, 2011, 05:27:24 AM »

How about putting the stupid cop, the chief, the judge and anyone else who supports overzealous, outrageous and ridiculous abuse of their positions to harass citizens, in the jail. Sounds to me like Fairbanks needs some genuine introspection going on.

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #81 on:** May 04, 2011, 05:34:23 AM »

A month ago a number of fisherman complete with ATVs broke off with the ice and were floating down the Green River. Expert rescue units responded and saved 10 lives. That is their job SAVED LIVES. The survivors were not tortured, fined or imprisoned for being alive. It seems that our government has forgotton why we set up and pay so much for government services.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #82 on:** May 04, 2011, 07:35:54 AM »

Sounds like they suffer cabin fever !

Hooker · « **Reply #83 on:** May 04, 2011, 08:34:28 AM »

Quote from: wreckhog on May 04, 2011, 03:52:16 AM

If the water was so shallow why didn't't dumbass walk to hire. Prison will do the adult 18 year old a world of good.

Yeah putting someone in prison when they have committed no crime will do lots of good

Pat

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #84 on:** May 04, 2011, 11:44:37 AM »

maybe the judge owns a private jail , and pays the cop a finders fee to stock it ?