A tough choice ?

[ironglow]

A couple questions..

  1)  Atty general Holder is totally against waterboarding suspected, but not convicted terrorists.  He claims waterboarding is just plain torture...pres Obama agrees with him and endorses the prosecution of the attorney who said waterboarding is acceptable .
      1b) Then the the prez sends in a SEAL team to rub out a suspected, but not convicted terrorist  ! In the process many others in the same housewere killed or wounded, including the suspect's wife and son.. 
   Comment ?

  2) There is a reward totalling about $50 million, for the info leading to Bin Ladin's whereabouts.  It is looking more and more like waterboarding is what pointed the way to the suspect, so...   Who gets the money..the suspect who was waterboarded or the attorney who approved the waterboarding procedure ?
            Comment ?
   
   3) If you genuinely believe waterboarding a suspected terrorist is "torture"..what do we call blowing half a suspect's head away, killing his son and wounding his wife?  If you were to be tortured and given a choice whether it would be waterboarding or killing you and part of your family, which would you choose ?
    Comment ?

[Shu]

There are those that would decry waterboarding as torture and say we are way beyond that. We are a civilized society. I believe we are a civilized society but I do believe we are fortunate enough to have people who will get their hands dirty to save lives. I for one believe that if you are picked up on a battle field firing weapons at an American troop then you are subject to well aimed rifle fire or waterboarding. People can cry all they want but the facts remain, war is uncivilized and brutal. I do not condone the killing of innocents, there is however collateral damage. It happens, it sucks but that is nature of war.
If waterbaording someone who was captured in a warzone firing on Americans saves one life, it is well worth it. We are at war and it is not about the loser will just go home and life will be normal again. If America loses this war it will radically change it. Most could not stomach Sharia law and most would not give up their freedoms. Winning this war will radically change America also, it will mean America will had to have fought against religious ideology and not just political ones. 

To me the choice is not tough, there is only one mindset for war and that is to win. The idea that war should be civilized and have rules is just a contradiction in terms. War is by nature removing your enemy from the face of the earth without fear or guilt.

The reward money goes to no one. The TERRORIST who was waterboarded didn't give up that information willingly. The attorney who approved waterboarding did the right thing but is still not entitled to the reward. Unfortunately the SEAL who pulled the trigger is not either.

[sidewinder319]

The Socialist really seemed to a approve of what ever is needed at the time. The Nazis passed universal health care and used it to eradicate Jews. The Nazis passed the first ant- tobacco programs to protect the clean air. But they gassed the air for anyone who disagreed. And now keeping with the Socialist traditions it is illegal to pour water in some ones nose. But it is OK to kill a person and go about the Nation celebrating your kill. Do you know if you shot a deer and put it on your fender and drove about Washington DC you would be arrested. We who are called right wingers accept these facts as part of our survival.

[magooch]

How can a lawyer be held responsible for approving anything.  In the case of water boarding, or any other treatment, the lawyer just offers an opinion.  The President makes the decision.  I happen to think that George Bush made the right decision.

How safe can this country be with terror sympathizers like BHO and Eric Holder in power.  Sure, Obama gave the order to get Osama, but I can't help believing it had more to do with he'd have been in trouble if he hadn't.  Our intelligence services did their jobs so well that Obama had no choice.  Yup, that's me giving equal credit to a Dumycrat that the liberals gave to a Republican President.

[powderman]

SHU. Agreed Sir, good post. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

  I am not in favor of genuine torture...especially where there is any permanent damage done..to mind or body.  I don't believe waterboarding to be torture in that sense.  It is of course, very uncomfortable and some who have endured it voluntarily or involuntarily say it is torture..but still cannot point to scars or permanent damage.
  Each of us who served in the Army or Marines had to go through the gas chamber.  I dare say, interviewed immediately after, most would have claimed it was indeed torture.  Still. having endure it 3 times, I have no lasting effects; physical or psychological...even though I didn't enjoy it at the time !
   Should the officers who decided the training schedule be prosecuted ?

[Lost Farmboy]

after near 200 water boarding excursions...of course, now he's a blithering idiot.


..TM7
.

Please explain.

[ironglow]

  Yes; time to back up that "200 waterboarding excursions"...  From any credible news source I have read or heard from there were only 2 or 3 suspects waterboarded, and they only oine or twice each..and those mostly overseas..
     Today I'm "from Missouri'  you must "show me'..

[Shu]

With waterboarding there is some psychological things going on. The simulated drowning effects can be terrifying. Some people break during the first session. It is not pleasant and in training at least you can hold onto the thought they won't kill you. The simulation of drowning can be down right horrible, with no thought of escape, the mind can only endure so much. Anyone who has been to SERE school can tell you it is something they don't want to do again. If you think I am against using enhanced interrogation tactics, don't kid yourself. I am all in favor of using them to end this thing. Unfortunately even with OBL dead there really isn't an end in sight. Progress has been made but this is like stopping an infestation of cockroaches.

[ironglow]

  Agreed Shu, I am not necessarily in favor of waterboarding..but when the choice is one of terrorizing a terrorist or seeing 10, 20 or a thousand or more innocents murdered, common sense should dictate.
  As you said, usually the subject breaks first time...but TM ios telling us that KSM was waterboarded 200 times.  To me that type of exaggeration makes it obvious there id nothing backing the statement.  Surely, if the inquisitors have not gained anything the first or second waterboarding, it would defy logic to say the dummy was waterboarded 25, 50 or 60 times...say nothing of 200 times..for what end would they do that ?

[SHOOTALL]

Lets see we send our sons and daughters into some hell hole to find the folks that attacked and killed Americans and are plotting to do so again. Forget the politics if skinning some terroist alive would save the life of just one American soilder , go for it. The PC idea that we are above survival and killing our best youth to prove it is the purest form of BS out there.

[SHOOTALL]

released back......
politics maybe

[magooch]

So it seems that it's okay to shoot the enemy in the face, but it's not okay to water board them.  I don't see a problem--shoot em in the face.

[Pot-Bellied Stallion]

"So like kinda BHO was entrapped so to speak.....??....."

BHO was entrapped by his own political agenda.  He needed something spectacular to improve his position in the polls, so what better than to act on the intelligence he has probably known ever since he has been in office.  Today's polls indicate that he acted correctly.

[Lost Farmboy]

  Agreed Shu, I am not necessarily in favor of waterboarding..but when the choice is one of terrorizing a terrorist or seeing 10, 20 or a thousand or more innocents murdered, common sense should dictate.
  As you said, usually the subject breaks first time...but TM ios telling us that KSM was waterboarded 200 times.  To me that type of exaggeration makes it obvious there id nothing backing the statement.  Surely, if the inquisitors have not gained anything the first or second waterboarding, it would defy logic to say the dummy was waterboarded 25, 50 or 60 times...say nothing of 200 times..for what end would they do that ?

Ironglow your thoughts are those of a rational man.  The kind that I would hope would be the ones authorized to use such techniques.  This may not be true.  If KSM was water boarded 200 times causing permanent brain damage, it is much more serious than abu ghraib.  Then there should be an investigation and some people should go to prison.  But, those that went to prison for abu ghraib were patsies following orders.  To water board a man 200 times causing brain damage is inexcusable under any circumstances.  That is if it is true.

[mechanic]

In water boarding, no water is poured in the person's nostrils or mouth.  The face is covered with clear plastic, and the water is poured on that.  The discomfort is mostly psychological.

Our special ops are waterboarded, among other things as part of their training.

Regardless of what we think, it is a mild form of torture to say the least.

In Nam, the Montagyards did the torture for us...and it was real torture.

If I had my druther's we could all live like civilized people and forgo war.  Unfortunately, the world is not such a place.

Ben