Author Topic: When the Constitution died (Read 1234 times)

Gary G · « **on:** February 01, 2011, 04:34:01 PM »

On 2:30 A.M. armed military personnel broke into Clements home by knocking down the back door and two interior doors, and without warrant, took hold of him. He was forcibly taken that night to a military prison in Cincinnati. The next morning Clement was taken before a military commission, and without council, was tried for "publicly declaring disloyal sentiments and opinions". He was promptly found guilty and sentenced to prison. Later he was forcibly placed on a ship by the orders of the President and exiled from the country. While exiled, the people of Ohio voted him governor.

He was a congressman from Ohio, Clement L. Vallandigham. The day before he had made a speech to congress titled "Executive Usurpation".

Here is the speech, and it is long:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_Ys-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA306&lpg=PA306&dq=vallandigham+speech+executive+usurpation&source=bl&ots=6jjiqqABdR&sig=osQ-o8YFUls0eUNa8LghSs9Egf0&hl=en&ei=sclITY2UBszTgAeAj9HbBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vallandigham%20speech%20executive%20usurpation&f=false

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2011, 06:44:20 AM »

Though I feel your title a little misleading the subject matter is first rate!

A quote I feel most telling!

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He admits the fact; he admits that, to-day, we are in the midst of a general civil war, not now a mere petty insurrection, to be suppressed in twenty days, by a proclamation and a poste comitatus of three months' militia.

Sir, it has been the misfortune of the President, from the beginning, that he has totally and wholly under-estimated the magnitude and character of the Revolution with wbich he had to deal, or suiely he never would have ventured upon the wicked and hazardous experiment of calling thirty millions of people to arms among themselves, without the counsel and authority of Congress. Put when, at last, he found himself hemmed in by the revolution, and this city in danger, as he declares, and waked up thus, as the proclamation of the 15th of April proves him to have waked up, to the reality and significance of the movement, why did he not forthwith assemble Congress, and throw himself upon the wisdom and patriotism of the Representatives of the States, and of the people, instead of usurping powers

Why not indeed!

Gary G · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2011, 11:03:30 AM »

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Though I feel your title a little misleading

From what I have studied, all presidents before Lincoln, to a degree feared usurpation of the Constitution and it is made well known in some of the actions that they wanted to make, but felt they could not because they respected the limiting power of the Constitution. From this speech by the respected congressman from Ohio, it is clearly evident that Lincoln had no regard for the Constitution and this set a priority that has been followed by most of the executive branch since. Remember that Hitler and Stalin kissed babies when in public. A politician can only be judged by what he does, not what he says. Today, the Constitution is only an old piece of paper while in the hands of the modern executive. The president is to be only the C.E.O. executing the laws made by the legislative branch and not the originator of laws.

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2011, 03:49:42 PM »

I agree wholeheartedly with where you are headed. My only thought was that it might be proper to give the congressman, Clement L. Vallandigham, his day in the sun.

It would add clarity IMVHO and also might increase the level of debate.

Believe me, I meant no slight, and beg your pardon if you feel slighted in the least.

Gary G · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2011, 04:30:10 PM »

Ga.W, you have always had my utmost respect, and no, I did not feel slighted. The purpose of my last post was to explain why I chose the title as I did. I believe that it proves a valid point concerning the loss of liberty in this country over the past 140 years and when and with whom it began. There are many Lincoln defenders and I can understand that; he did save the union as the whole, but what was lost as a result of his trampling the Constitution?

I don't know if you have the capability to change the title, but you may if you think of a better one. Meanwhile, I doubt many people will read the speech because it is long. However, I think they would find something interesting if they did. I have the printed copy which is easier on the eyes.

BAGTIC · « **Reply #5 on:** May 07, 2011, 06:31:54 PM »

The fact that some politician or journalist said something derogatory about an opponent does not constitute evidence of anything. One would think that by know most of us would have learned that such badmouthing, regardless of source, is as likely as not pure B.S.

The Constitution did not die because Lincoln or any other individual 'trampled on it'. The trangressions of the moment are not eternal or irrevocable. The Constitution has suffered because many generations consisting of hundreds of millions of Americans have forsaken it and sold their birthright for a pittance. We have become a nation in bondage, in indebted servitude, because we have sold our souls for government handouts. It take a brave man to bite the hand that feeds him.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 11, 2011, 05:42:30 AM »

Excellent points!

williamlayton · « **Reply #7 on:** May 11, 2011, 06:09:05 PM »

The people demand a dole---they have sold their birthright for a bowl of soup. Seems i remember someone else doing that.
Blessings

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #8 on:** May 12, 2011, 04:38:47 AM »

Quote from: BAGTIC on May 07, 2011, 06:31:54 PM

The fact that some politician or journalist said something derogatory about an opponent does not constitute evidence of anything. One would think that by know most of us would have learned that such badmouthing, regardless of source, is as likely as not pure B.S.

I think throwing 30,000 of your own citizens into Military stockades without due process, including signing the arrest warrent for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court is, to this citizen, a little more that pure BS.

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The Constitution has suffered because many generations consisting of hundreds of millions of Americans have forsaken it and sold their birthright for a pittance. We have become a nation in bondage, in indebted servitude, because we have sold our souls for government handouts. It take a brave man to bite the hand that feeds him.

Never the less I agree with this latter statement 100%!

williamlayton · « **Reply #9 on:** May 13, 2011, 02:44:21 AM »

Hummm---30,000. Seems we did this in WWII. War is hell.
Blessings

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2011, 07:50:23 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton on May 13, 2011, 02:44:21 AM

Hummm---30,000. Seems we did this in WWII. War is hell.
Blessings

And your point is? 2 wrongs make it doubly right? I think Jesus would disagree.

williamlayton · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2011, 08:37:25 AM »

When war is at home and you have folks who would be terrorist and traitors what are you susposed to do with them?
Blessings

Casull · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2011, 08:38:55 AM »

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Hummm---30,000. Seems we did this in WWII. War is hell.
Blessings

Yes, I have to wonder about that statement as well. Are you so bent on defending the North that you let yourself find all aberrant behaviour to be defensible?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2011, 08:48:55 AM »

Internment is probably preferable to 'kill them all and let God sort 'em out', but for those who have died horribly in either it is of no difference or consequence. The reality is that expedience takes precedence over justice, and mercy, at times. I, for one, am glad that I dont have to depend upon man's mercy for my ultimate deliverance, for it is not likely to be there. My point? It seems too true that 'the only thing that we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history'. When 'they' start hauling 'us' off who will cry 'cease' or 'loose the dogs of war'?

williamlayton · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2011, 09:01:45 AM »

Casull
I don't think it aberrant behavior at all. Perhaps we should be doing more of this today.
Blessings

Casull · « **Reply #15 on:** May 13, 2011, 09:16:25 AM »

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I don't think it aberrant behavior at all.

If you truly mean that, and realize that we are talking about our own citizens, then you have problems other than just your unthinking defense of the North.

williamlayton · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2011, 03:51:16 PM »

Well, I do mean that. If they are Terrorist, home grow or alien, they need to be dealt with.
In the case of anyone who is in open rebellion against the Sovereignty of the Republic should be dealt with.
In the case of WWII and the Japanese, in the light of Pearl harbor and Germany declaring war on us, it was imperative that we take all measures to insure our safty within our borders. We did the same with German Bunts and some werearrested.
We face the same situation today with certain groups aiding and abetting foreign groups who would commit terrorism.
Where is this all going?
Blessings

Casull · « **Reply #17 on:** May 13, 2011, 05:45:20 PM »

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In the case of WWII and the Japanese, in the light of Pearl harbor and Germany declaring war on us, it was imperative that we take all measures to insure our safty within our borders.

That is complete and utter BS!!!!!!!! I can't believe even you really mean that.

ironfoot · « **Reply #18 on:** May 13, 2011, 10:44:59 PM »

I found this part interesting:

"...Vallandigham gave a major speech on May 1, 1863, charging that the war was being fought not to save the Union but to free the slaves...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Vallandigham

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #19 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:07:13 AM »

Quote from: Casull on May 13, 2011, 05:45:20 PM

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In the case of WWII and the Japanese, in the light of Pearl harbor and Germany declaring war on us, it was imperative that we take all measures to insure our safty within our borders.

That is complete and utter BS!!!!!!!! I can't believe even you really mean that.

Of course he means it Casull. The thread is about the death of the Constitution and willynilly's answers thruout prove, at least to this poster, he has no love for the rule of law by which our Constitution allows us to live in Freedom from Government opression.

If some government official says Joe Blow is a terrorist then by all means lock him up and throw away the key. By any means necessary .... as long as .... its not little willy being the one taken off to the dungen. To hell with if he is innocent or guilty!

Yep, our Constitution is dead, dead, dead! Given that our own fellow citizens have taken the time to neither care about or study the laws under which we live. A truly sad day!

williamlayton · « **Reply #20 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:25:14 AM »

What would you do to terrorist today.
The McVey's as well as the Bin laden's ?
Blessings