What lead me to Long Range Shooting.

[Sourdough]

Back when I was a young man, 20 or 21, I was out hunting Deer in Tennessee.  I ran into an old man sitting in a wheel chair, at a power line cut.  The old man had a card table sitting in front of him and shooting bags on the table.  He had him a 30-06 rifle sitting on the table.  I asked him what he planned on doing.  He said I plan on shooting a Deer this evening when the Deer come out.  I asked "How are you going to get close enough".  He said "I'm close enough, if one comes out.  That power line cut was 40 yards wide, and about 800 yards to the other end.  I laughed, thinking this old man is dreaming.  I was wrong, but I only had my life experiences to go by, and my Dad and Uncle had always told me you could not hit anything beyond 100 yards.  Later that evening I heard one lone shot.  I walked back the way I had gone in, and as I passed the spot where the old man had been sitting, I could see people working out in the cut between 500 and 600 yards away.  I went home and told my Dad and he refused to believe it.

Now everybody back there will tell you shots are usually 40 yards.   That is what I was taught all my life, up to that point.  I remember seeing Deer up on the hillside at my Uncle's house, and thinking it sure would be nice to be able to hit that thing from here.  I would mention it and my Dad and Uncle would laugh, saying "No body can shoot that far.  I believed them.

I got reassigned to Alaska, where I was more or less a hunting guide for high level VIPs, military and Civilian.  I took these high level officials on hunting trips.  There was one Navy Admiral that I just could not stand, but I had to play the game.  One evening we saw a bunch of Caribou from camp.  This Admiral took a shot at the herd, hitting one.  He had gut shot it and it was getting away.  I did not want to see this animal get away to die a slow death.  I laid down and placed my .308 across a log.  I raised my cross-hairs just above the animals back and took the shot.  A totally wild guess, Caribou fell.  Later stepped it out, just over 700 yards.  After returning to the base I would tell people about it and few would believe me saying nobody can shoot that far.

Years later I was stationed in New Mexico.  I hunted with a bunch of old men who were crippled up and not able to walk far or do any strenuous activity.  Did not take long for me to realize the only reason I was invited along was to do the heavy lifting and to help them mount their horses each morning.  One day we were riding and a Mule Deer jumped up out about 600 yards away.  One of the old guys (Burlie Beller) threw his rifle up and bam, one dead deer.  I talked to him later that evening and found out his Grandpa and Pa had been Buffalo Hunters.  They also found out that after they had shot a few Apaches out at 700 and 800 yards the Indians stayed away from their ranch.  Burlie told me his father had taught him to shoot Deer and Antelope at long ranges when he was a kid.  Out on the flat Toularosa Basin if you could not shoot at long ranges you went hungry.  At this time my hunting partner Norm and I would go out shooting Jack Rabbits every weekend.  I used a .22 Remington Pump.  No one told me I could not shoot jacks out at 150 yards with my .22, so I started hitting them on a reguler basis at that range.  Then One day Norm brought his .22-250.  That is when I realized I had been shooting all the jacks.  Norm complained I never gave him a chance, he could not understand how I could hit a running jack at 125 to 150 yards with a .22.  I had just learned how much I needed to hold over at that range, just an educated guess you could say.

About that time I started seeing articles and films about Carlos Hathcock and other Viet Nam era snipers.  Carlos Hathcock showed his Sniper Rifle.  A pre 64 Winchester bolt action rifle.  Looked just like what you see in the field being carried by Deer hunters nationwide.

I moved back to Alaska in 1985.  Many times while above tree line the wife and I would see Caribou, Moose, Bears, or Wolves, out beyond 500 yards.  Many times they would be at ranges of 700 to 800 yards.  Totally unaware of our presence, and in position for a perfect shot if only I could shoot at that range.  The wife often asked why I did not shoot them, she could not understand why they were too far.  Then I met a bunch of older men who had blinds set up on hill sides above the head waters of rivers in the area.  These guys were shooting Moose and Bears at ranges of 400 to 700 yards.  They had their rifles sited in to be dead on at a particular clearing below them.  If the Moose walked out in clearing A, they shot it with rifle A.  If it was clearing C, they used rifle C.  They had five clearings and five rifles.  Nothing was ever changed on these rifles.  Today this group still does it that way, and has changed nothing since I met them. 

I started shooting a pack of Wolves one day with a semi-auto .223.  As the Wolves ran away I noticed my shots falling short in the snow.  So I raised my aim point that much above the Wolf and the next shot would connect.  So by trail and error I began to see how my trajectory worked on the rifle I was shooting.  I started doing research on my favorite hunting rifle at the time, a Ruger M-77 in .338 Win Mag.  I figured my 225gr Nosler bullet was about 45 to 48 inches low at 500 yards. 

We were driving out a trail one morning in the track rig when a Big Bull Moose jumped up.  One of the guys in the rig jumped out shooting he had it.  So we waited for him to shoot.  He made a horrible gut shot at 40 yards.  Moose got away.  I was so disgusted with the shooter, I refused to help them chase it down.  I crawled up on top of the track rig and sat down.  These guys ran off to the East chasing this Bull.  As I sat there I saw movement to the North, and realized the Bull had cut back on them.  There it stood, humped up, a long way off.  The young man that was sitting with me was a surveyor.  I asked him to give me an estimate on the range to the Bull.  He said he thought it was 500 yards or close to it.  I got out my rifle and a varmint rest.  I set up on the roof of the rig while standing in the bed.  I guessed about four ft above where I wanted the bullet to hit, and took the shot.  Moose went down kicking. 

Later that year after snow fall my buddy Chuck and I were riding snow machines in the same area.  I spotted two Wolves stalking a Caribou cow and calf.  I shot one at about 120 yards with my Handi 30-06.  Chuck missed the other one, with his .222 Mag.  Chuck shot seven more times but never made a hit, as the Wolf ran away.  The Wolf made it to the top of the hill and sit down looking at us.  Chuck started cussing it as it sat there.  Then the Wolf got up and stretched.  I told Chuck, "Hay it's knows it's safe and it's making fun of you".  Chuck turned red, he walked over and grabbed my rifle out of my hand.  Chuck looked at me and said, "The army taught me to kill a man at a thousand yards with a 30-06.  I still think I can do it".  Chuck sat down and used my snowmachine seat as a rest.  Chuck took the shot and the Wolf went over backwards.  (I've since ranged it with a GPS, and it ranged out to 1010 yards).  I thought if Chuck can make that kind of a shot then I can do it too.

I started doing research.  I looked at Cartridges, trajectories, velocities, energies, and what rifles could make that kind of a shot consistently.  I started out with my 30-06, then discovered it did not have the energy after 500 to 600 yards to knock down anything bigger than a Wolf.  I then went to my 7MM Mag, again decided there just was not the energy left once it got there beyond 700 yards.  But talk about practice.  I shot almost every day for two to three hours, using everything from a .22RF to my .338 Win Mag.  I shot the .243, the 350s, the 45-70, everything I owned, to find out how far they would shoot accurately.  I kept coming back to the 30-06 and the .338 Win Mag.  I read more and more on long range shooting, and Snipers.  At this time a close friend in Florida took me to meet some friends of theirs at the Special Operations Command.  These are the elite shooters in the military.  I did a lot of talking with them, and they allowed me to try out many of their weapons.  I decided on the .338 Lapuia Mag.  These guys swear by the .338 bullet.  These guys also sold me on the Night Force Scope.  Spendy but the best in their book, and I totally agree.  With them price is no object, they get the best.  That's what I wanted.

That year when I came home I decided to buy an Armalite AR-30 in .338 Lapuia Mag.  I messed up and waited too long to purchase the gun.  When I was ready to buy all that the dealers had were sold out, and Armalite had quite selling to the general public.  Everything was going to the big sand box.  One of the Navy Seals had told me about the .338/378 Weatherby.  It is the next cartridge above the Lapuia.  He had said he was wanting to shoot it and compare it to the Lapuia.  So when I could not get the AR-30, I went to Sportsman's Warehouse and took a look at the Weatherby Accumark.  I liked the gun a lot better than the Armalite, so I bought the Weatherby.  I have never regretted it one minute either.

It's been a long process working up loads, breaking in a new barrel, finding rings and bases that would hold a two pound scope under recoil.  Then shooting at long ranges working up my distance charts, and dialing the scope.  Keeping records of trajectories at all the different ranges from 50 to 600 yards.  At first that was my maximum range, 600 yards.  Beyond that I sometimes missed the gallon jug, so practice and more practice.  Then I got comfortable with 700 yards and soon I was out to 800 yards.  A confirmed kill (meaning I hit the milk jug every shot) at 800 yards.  A gallon milk jug is about the size of a Moose heart, that's my target.

It felt so good when I shot that Moose at 787 yards, one shot.  Then the following year I shot the Grizzly at 620 yards.  I made three shots on the Grizzly, but every one was a killing shot.  Grizzlies take a while to go down usually, and you keep shooting till they are down.

Now you new guys understand my quest for long range shooting.  Some of the problems I had to overcome, and all the hard work and practice I have gone through.  Today I am shooting my Weatherby and hitting milk jugs at 1200 yards.  I never intend to shoot anything other than milk jugs past 1000 yards, but I like to know I could do it if I needed to.

But the best shot I ever made, the one that I will remember the rest of my life.  My Dad, My Uncle, and I were sitting on the carport at my uncle's house one evening.  My Uncle says, "Look up yonder on the hillside at that big buck".  There stood a big Whitetail Buck with his lip curled up, smelling the wind.  I got up and went to my Dad's truck.  I got out my TCR in 7mm Mag.  I rested across the hood of my Dad's truck, and took the shot.  Deer jumped straight up, then took off running hard.  About 20 yards later it fell.  My Dad and my Uncle just sat there with their mouths open.  That Deer had been in the same place they had always told me was too far away to shoot.  640 Yards.

[dk17hmr]

There is something about putting shots on target at long range I enjoy also.  3 weeks ago I put a 3" group on target at 800 yards and a 5 shot 6" group on target at 1400 yards with a custom built 300wsm.  I grew up in Michigan where a 200 yard shot on deer is a long shot, now that I live in Wyoming anything 300 yards and in is short range.

The rifle in my avatar is a custom built 243 Super Rock Chucker, last fall my brother sent one round down the barrel at an antelope standing broadside at 445 yards (lasered) and the critter was on the ground before he recovered from recoil, the rifle weighs 15 pounds and you can see your hits on p-dogs at 75 yards through the 18x scope...my brother was very excited and on our quarter mile walk to start field dressing he laughed and said that was the first time he shot a rifle in 6 months....I have good MOA adjustments on this rifle out to 1000 yards and knew the rifle was up to it.

[LaOtto222]

Rodger - Good Story, as usual. The key and theme is a lot of practice to make those long shots. Not just guessing what the range is and poking a shot out here. As you said, it would just be luck. Put the practice time in and you take the luck out of it. There is more to it than knowing the distance too. Personally I have always had more trouble with doping the wind than distance.

Good Luck and Very Good Shooting.

[Slowhanddd]

Great story.As per usual.Slow

[Jimbo47]

That story opening reminds me of when I first started deer hunting when you mentioned that powerline, because that was my favorite spot for a blind back then.

We found an old 1940 model Ford car body that someone years earlier had placed at the base of a powerpole on a rise, where it looked down on a bottom that was probably 300 yards to the other side.    My brother and I shot a few deer off that old car body, but our longest shot taken was probably a little over 200 because when either of us took a shot at that distance, my dad would come over from where he was hunting and he had warned us that if we shot that far, we had better have a deer on the ground, and we did.

That sniper rifle was a Model 70 Winchester which was a civilian version converted to military specs. usually by installing a heavier barrel than on the civilian version, and you must have hit the wrong key, but his name was Carlos Hathcock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmlXlddi06k&feature=related

Thank you for a great story and it brought back some memories of my youth.

[Ol BW]

  "Tennessee: Patron State of Shootin' Stuff" 

[jabey9210]

I remember as a teenager seeing coyotes at about 700 to 1000 yards and just holding over them and squeezing off a few rounds of the ol' 30-06 obviously never hitting them.  Now days I pride myself on being able to group shots on a 10" plate at those same distances.  I don't think the average shooter realizes what is involved with consistently hitting the mark at those distances.  And how much drift you get out of what seems like a little breeze.  I don't know that I would be capable of those shots without today's rangefinders,  scope turrets and drop charts.  So kudos to all those who figured it out years ago just by having a keen eye and knowing there equipment.

[Sourdough]

Jimbo47:  Thanks for pointing out my mistake, but my son read it before I made the correction.  He is blasting me now for not wearing my headphones when watching TV.  We had seen a Sniper Special on the History channel recently.  And with my hearing loss I misunderstand names.

jabey9210:  Wind is my enemy.  Wind is the only variable I can not control.  With wind it's a guess.  Hunting in the mountains, sometimes it will be from one direction half the bullet flight, and the opposite direction the second half.

[Jimbo47]

No problem Sourdough, and again it just goes to prove it's not so much the arrow, but the indian behind the arrow that makes all the difference in the world.

[necchi]

Good story, Thanks for sharing.

So Sourdough, How DOES the handi work out for some of this stuff?
 Considering a feller works out all the bugs, get's the fit right and a decent hunting scope, say 3x9-3x12 at most, and toss in a reliable handload that's proven sub moa at 200,,,

[dave29]

Good story!

Thanks for writing it up. I really enjoyed reading it. 

[ThomD]

Long range shots can certainly be made, but Sniping is not necesarily the measure.  Wounding is a good start in war, but not so with hunting.  Also one can certainly determine what the risk in exposing oneself is, from zero to a lot when sniping, and if the risk is reasonable, why not give a shot a go.  In sport hunting there should be virtual certainty that a shot will be successful.  It is interesting that when game is privately owned there is greater accountability for wounded and unrecovered game.  While one would like to think that people would not need the incentive of heavy head fees or loosing hunting priviledges to keep them within their range, I am not so sure.

Bullet performance at long range is not the same as up close.  In 30 cals there can be different bullets for different velocities, out at long range one might be in 30-30 territory.  With military objectives the bullet performance is difference, in some cases it will be FMJ, and that is predictable ish, or it might be a hollow points for accuracy with quite variable bullet performance, not the kind of bullets normally used for hunting.

Long range shots make recovery difficult it can be difficult to even accurately determine where the animal was standing when shot.  This can be a challenge at bowhunting range, on occasion, though it certainly helps a lot if you have a second set of eyes who can direct you out to where the shot was made.

Rifle accuracy has improved a lot over the years, but often people aren't completely honest about the kind of accuracy their rifles provide.  They may be very sellective about what groups they record in their active memory.  I once was asked by another Sako varmint rifle owner what accuraccy I was getting.  I kept a note of the accuracy of every shot ever fired on target, and was averaging about .75"-1"  (long time ago) for all conditions, loads, and wind.  He snorted, and told me he was getting much better accuracy, and then quoted me a figure that would have won a class in 100 yds benchrest at the time.  I don't doubt he may have made a 3 shot group of that size, he just wasn't anywhere near to getting that kind of accuracy as a rule.  Start to add in more factors, than bench rest accuracy like open terrain,  ranging erors, light conditions, field positions, pressure, etc...  And 600 yard accuracy is probably not that great anymore, and may start to outspread the target.  Remember also that game can move.

Also Carlos Hathcock, did not shoot a rifle that was typical of deer rifles.  He shot a rifle closer to a varmint rifle in contours and glass.  It had been gone over by an armourer.  Granted one can buy that level of quality and more these days, but the average rifle out there with factory ammo can still be a 1-2 MOA rifle from the bench.  Hathcock also worked with a trained partner much of the time, who could observe conditions and bullet path through a high power scope.  And Hathcock was a Camp Perry level shooter.

I am not saying one should not shoot at long distances.  Just that one should do all the math, and a lot of range work, including the distances one wants to shoot at before shooting at live targets.  Shooting and hunting are somewhat a zero sum game the longer the shot, often the less the skill required in hunting.  Just so long as ethics aren't also in the trade.

[Jimbo47]

I have to agree with what you say as it would apply to about 95% of us hunters who hit the woods for live game as most of us are going to shoot our quarry at ranges more in the 100 yards or less range.

I concentrate as most of us do at that 100 yard range as the magic number for taking game, and by saying that, you can look at most of your public ranges have distances that only go out to 200 yards, with some going to 300 yards, but seldom is it easy to find a range that stretches way out there, and those or for novelty type shooting.

Then you have folks like Sourdough that make these shots on a regular basis, and know their rifle and what they are capable of doing at long range under certain conditions.

They have to hunt that way as with the open country you are not going to get too close of those multiple wary eyes, and if need be, follow up shots are going to be more doable simply because of the range involved and that the animal may not know what is going on just yet.

People have been hunting open country and taking game at long distances almost since gunpowder was invented, but there is a difference between those who know how, and have years of experience, and those who are just slinging lead downrange.

[Sourdough]

Necchi:  Two of my Handi' 30-06s can be used for 600 and 700 yard shots.  My standard Handi and the Ultra Comp, the Ultra Comp looks like it is going to be the best performer, due to lessened recoil  (It's more comfortable for the shooter).  I do not shoot at Moose or Bears beyond 500 yards with the 30-06.  But for Caribou, Wolves, and Coyotes, yes, 600 and 700 yard shots are good on them.  Bullet performance is just not there for the larger stuff.  Placement is extremely important.  I have knocked foxes off with my .223 Ultra at 500 yards.

ThomD:  Different slant, same outcome.  I agree with what you said, and what you said is what we do.  Now when out hunting Wolves and Coyotes I am usually alone.  But when hunting Moose, Caribou, and Bears I am always with my partner Norm.  One of us is on the spotting scope watching the shot.  Both of us range, and check the wind.  That is something I had left out.  Another thing you mentioned is Bullet performance.  At longer ranges some just do not open up.  I use Nosler Accubond and Partitions with my .338/378.  On a Moose at 800 yards the Partition mushrooms, but the front half stays intact.  Under 600 yards the front half of a partition is always missing.  With Caribou I have never had a bullet not make a complete pass through.  While the exit hole is often not much bigger than the entrance hole, the Caribou are usually down within 20 to 30 yards if they run at all.  I have a real problem with the guys that are just out there slinging lead myself.  You saw the criteria I use before I take a shot at game today.  A lot of practice and consistent hits on the milk jug with every shot before I go and hunt at that range.

Every year we take a young GI with us Caribou hunting.  We take them to the range a week before the hunt.  We set targets up every hundred yards out to 500.  We staple a 6" pie plate to the center of each large target frame.  Three shots at each target, then if three hits we move to the next one out.  Seldom do we get one that can hit that pie plate every shot beyond 200 yards.  Over half the time they are only good at 100 yards.  While they have a good gun and cartridge combination, it is the shooter that is not capable.

[necchi]

"Over half the time they are only good at 100 yards.  While they have a good gun and cartridge combination, it is the shooter that is not capable."

Yes Sir, I belong to two clubs, one open to public.
 And at both ranges the guy's that can shoot are the ones that spend time shooting. (aka; Practice)

Every year the Deer hunting crowd shows up 2-3weeks before season to sight in, I can't count how many times I hear, "Gee It was shooting good last year, I don't know if it's me or the gun?"
 Guess what buddy,,"It's you",, they don't like hearing that,, But they stumble off muttering "Gudnuf fer Deer Hunting,,"   

[TonyS]

Thanks for the posts.  You validated what I have thought was true.

Last year I took a deer at 157 yds with my muzzleloader.  I have friends that point out that at that distance with iron sights the front bead covers up the target.  I tell them that I practice at 200 yds specifically for that reason.

Practice, practice, practice.  That's how you get there.

[ThomD]

Sourdough Sounds like you have it worked out.  Your milk jug method reminds me of the pie plate method a lot of archers use, where you make sure you really have the actual shot down in all circumstances.  Of course since the advent of 3D shooting, there pie plates are a bit passe in the archery field.  Without insulting anyone, we know human performance is a huge variable.  It plays a part here too.  And having the opportunity to actually practice in the open, real shots, which is difficult for a lot of shooter working in more densely populated areas, is a huge advantage.  And there will be shooters for whom long range has a familiar feel.  Also, these days, lasers make range finding affordable for a lot of people.  338/378, a good Elmer Keith cartridge there!

[Sourdough]

ThomD:  The 338/378 was developed by Roy Weatherby back in the 60s.  He took his .378 cartridge and necked it down to use both 338 and 30 caliber bullets.  But he realized there were no powders at the time that were suitable for these large capacity rounds.  So weatherby put them on the shelf.  Then a few years back Hodgdon and Dupont came out with Rutumbo, and IMR 7828.  So Weatherby dusted them off and put them into production.  My favorite load uses a 225gr Nosler Accubond, in front of IMR 7828, going 3210fps.

As for the milk jugs, or Ocean Spray plastic jugs, a hit is all we are looking for.  I don't care if I hit it center or along the edge, a hit is a hit.  Those jugs are the size of a Moose's heart, or close enough.  At 600 to 1000 yards we know if we got a hit or not.  We won't be able to see bullet holes, but we know when the jug explodes we have a hit.  Jugs must be completely full of water.

[gendoc]

yep, my son can tellya lotts bout tha 338 lapua and the 338/378 weatherman

he rebuilds them quite regular. not from your type of stress tho.............
they are  very respectable long range shooters.  have ya seen tha latest on the 20mm
sniper rifle ??

well all is gud with tha new stuff... jus gimme a 03a3 in tha heat of tha moment 
i know they can do what you are capable of at a familier distance......