Author Topic: Sight's questions (Read 848 times)

ButlerFord45 · « **on:** December 30, 2003, 12:45:31 PM »

My piece of junk sights sit on top of my piece of junk rifle, but it doesen't matter much, cause even with my piece of junk glasses my piece of junk eyes don't see well enough to flick fleas. So with that out of the way, and as a matter of curiosity only, what is it that makes a peep sight and an adjustable post worth $900 other than snob appeal??? For example, Ziess bino's are great, but so's a good pair of Stiners. Leupold's or Burris' are pretty good too. I feel certain that they are better, but that's the question. What is it about them that makes them 3x better???

Lead pot · « **Reply #1 on:** December 30, 2003, 12:57:40 PM »

:-D Well Butler that sounds kinda junky

Let me ask you,can you hit with them?if you can I think there pritty good.What you think??

by the way I have a pair os ziess binoculars and I wouldeven fight you if you would try to take em from me :roll:

Kurt

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 30, 2003, 01:10:23 PM »

Leadpot, that's about as noncomittal answer as is allowed without announcing your candidacy! :eek: 'Cept bout them lookin' glasses!

In the "For What It May Be Worth" department, I'd sure like to see you get yer big butt back down to the Hiking and Backpacking Forum, where you belong!

Lead pot · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2003, 01:23:17 PM »

O Butler I think it's time for someone younger to take the lead,I never was any good at it.The last time I was in the wyo.wilderness heck I got lost fer three days before I found my truck again,next time I might get lost fer ever,then bill would have to find sombody any way.

Kurt

Timberlake · « **Reply #4 on:** December 31, 2003, 03:52:35 AM »

ButlerFord45,

Without handling an expensive sight, or rifle for that matter, it is difficult to percieve the very demonstrable difference between "junk" and quality*. No doubt in my mind you would change yours if offered the opportunity to work with good stuff.

*Quality is a lot like buying oats. If you want good, fresh, clean oats you must pay a fair price; if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been thru the horse, that comes much cheaper.

TL

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #5 on:** December 31, 2003, 06:51:59 AM »

ButlerFord45

" what is it that makes a peep sight and an adjustable post worth $900 other than snob appeal???"

The answer is simple; quality. It boils down to workmanship, close fitting parts, repeatablity of adjustments and wearability. Your junk sights may very well be satisfactory on your junk rifle. However, to realize the full accuracy potential of a $2,000 plus rifle your junk sights would not do. Putting the junk sights on that kind of rifle would be tantamount to putting retreads on a Corvette, at some point they WILL let you down.

Scopes on hunting rifle is another story. You will shoot only as good as you can see. With optics you get what you pay for. I have several rifles that cost less than the scope on top of them. Those with the same rifle and a Wallyworld special sitting on it always think their rifle is a "lemon" because it doesn't shoot like mine. They don't want to believe that quality of optics can, and do, make the difference.

This brings us to; "For example, Ziess bino's are great, but so's a good pair of Stiners. Leupold's or Burris' are pretty good too. I feel certain that they are better, but that's the question. What is it about them that makes them 3x better???"

My main big game hunting partners have had a pair of Stiener 9x40s and a pair of Leupold Wind River 8x40s for several years. I have always been impressed with them on varmint, several deer, elk and Alaskan hunts. Acouple years ago I was ready to upgrade from my Leica 6x35s to a better pair of binos with more power. I was able to step out side of my local gunshop (Welcher's in Tacoma, WA) and extensively look through several makes from $200 ones up through $1400 ones including the other makes you mentioned. I have always lusted over Ziess binos for years. In comparing the binos from 25 yards to about a half mile I kept coming back to the Ziess Victory 10x40s. I was able to make the comparisons on several days at varying time of the year and weather conditions. The Ziess were as good as all the others and for me showed much finer detail much clearer at the longer ranges.

I purchased the Zeiss. Last year during elk season we spotted a herd coming up out of the Imnaha Canyon in NE Oregon. They were about 1000 yards away. I spotted a nice spike as he came up onto the ridge and pointed him out to Jack. Jack said he could not tell that it was a spike and was I sure. I said I was and suggested we switch binos. With Jacks Steiner 9x40s I could not tell it was a spike either. Jack said; "I'll be damned, it is a spike. F**k these are nice!". We then began the stalk and I got the spike.

That is the difference in the "quality" and what you pay for. The ability to see fine detail because of the better lens. They are also very less tiring and will cause far less eye strain when glassing for hours on a varmint or big game hunt. The lessor quality binos in the $400-700 range are very good and will suffice for %90 of your needs. However when you have a great deal of time and $s invested in a hunt and that other %10 comes up, it is nice to have the Ziess.

You said it yourself that the others are "good" but the Ziess are "great", and that is very true.

Larry Gibson

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2003, 08:09:57 AM »

LMG after spending probably a few thousand on a hunting trip, and the binocular's having made the difference between a sucessful hunt and going home empty handed, I must concede on the binoculars, I wouldn't begrudge the extra 5-800 either. But! Doesen't it make you wonder, why, or what it is that they have to do extra, that makes it that much more costly to produce?
Ok, another example, I don't think anyone would argue that Harley Davidson is NOT the best motorcycle in the world, but it's cost would have you believe it is. Why the appeal?? (If you don't know, I couldn't explain is not the answer to this discussion)

Lead pot · « **Reply #7 on:** December 31, 2003, 08:20:25 AM »

I dont want to stray to far off topic,but I will anyway.
I dont think Butler is the kind of man to keep junky sights.
I have used my Ziess 10/40s for a long time there good.I was up in the Yellowstone one tine and spotted a Griz with them a long way off.I wanted a closer look so I pulled out my spotting scope and layed the binoculars on the roof of the blazer and forgot them when I left.I went down the road and saw them bouncing up and down on the road.When I looked at them one barel was bent the adjusting knob broke off and other dammage.
Icalled Ziess and told them what I did,and they said your not the first one to do that send them in.Two weaks later I had a new set for $125.
You cant beat that for an idiot trick.

Kurt

Omaha Poke · « **Reply #8 on:** December 31, 2003, 09:19:21 AM »

Butlerford, I will try to answer your question. I bought a Pedersoli rifle that came with a "Vernier Tang Sight". The hole in the rear eyecup was so small I couldn't even see the front sight let alone the target. Couldn't hit diddly with this rifle. I purchased a high grade Vernier Tang sight, with adjustable eyepiece, and low and behold, I could see the front sight and the target both. I was able to shoot a 9 shot group at 100 yds that could be covered with a silver dollar.

I now have 8 BPCR rifles, shoot BP exclusively in them, and have some of the finest sights you can buy. These sights enable me to shoot groups every bit as good as someone shooting a scoped rifle. Hope this helps answer your question. Basically, ya gets what ya pay fer!!

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31, 2003, 09:43:39 AM »

ButlerFord45

" Doesen't it make you wonder, why, or what it is that they have to do extra, that makes it that much more costly to produce?"

I don't know about the Harleys as I'm not much into motorcycles, I prefer 4 wheel drive and all 4 of them under me. I tried motor bikes once and had a really nice Yamaha 250 but I kept looking around for critters when travleing down the trail instead of watching in front of the front tire. Consequently I fell down too much. When a rut darned near "Evil Kineviled" me across a canyon once I went back to a CJ5.

Anyways, with binos the extra cost is in the quality of the material and construction, the quality of the glass in the lens, the quality and trueness of the lens grinding and polishing, the coatings on the lens and of course the guarantee (Leadpot's post is ample evidence of how much it can be worth). All of which cost more $s and are worth it in the long run considering the amount of money I've "wasted" on cheaper binos as I use binos all the time. I really doubt I'll have to buy another bino in my lifetime. Since using the Ziess 10x40s vs my $200 10x40s, even on a simple squirrel shoot, at the end of the day I have no eye strain with the Ziess where I always have with other binos, even the large Army Steiners when in a sniper hide. The zeis are also much more compact than either the $200 dollar ones or the Army's Steiners. The Ziess just make "glassing" much easier and more enjoyable in the long run and I see more.

The more expensive binos (than the Ziess) are somewhat larger and have features I do not need. They generally do not have any better lens quality just additional features. If one can afford great binos then by all means get those in the $900-1100 range. Try out the various makes to "see" which ones your eyes like the best. Look through them at some distance and look for fine detail in focus to the edge of the field of view. All the different makes are quality binos in that price range. All our eyes are different and I'm not saying the Zeiss are the best, just that you should find those that are right for you. If you absolutely can't afford the great ones then I recommend you scrimp and save for a set in the $500-700 range. Again try them out before you buy, see what your eyes like. With either you will be money ahead and enjoy using them much more.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #10 on:** December 31, 2003, 09:52:29 AM »

One caveat; I still have my Lieca 6x35s, maybe 6x30s?, (US military surplus I picked up at a yard sale years ago) and they are quality binos. I use them instead of the Ziess when still hunting in densely forrested terrain as the Ziess 10x40s focus is to critical for good quick close up glassing. I find the 6x to be perfect for that as I got used to using them when "hunting" in the dense forrest of the SE Aisian war games of some years back.

Larry Gibson

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2004, 12:45:00 AM »

Timberlake, I'm so embarrased, I didn't thank you for replying, and helping get this thread started, 'specially when I gotta dissagree with you! You sir, have obviously not purchased a great deal of fertilizer, and trying to fertilize with fresh oats equals nothing but weeds. So the value of the oats would be dependent upon their suitability to fill a need. The quality of the oat however is measureable in terms that can be used to compare it to any other oat in the world.

"Without handling an expensive sight, or rifle for that matter, it is difficult to percieve the very demonstrable difference between "junk" and quality"
Tongue in cheek, elbow nudge to the ribs, smileys on both sides: See, you just proved my "snob appeal theory, expensive = quality".

Back when I was doing machining for motorcycles, I had a set of Sterret micrometers, expensive? yep! Quality? Oh yeah! but easily describable! The amount of force needed to use it was the same throughout the range of the instrument, the markings were crisply cut and the coloring of the markings were so perfectly done that interpolation between the markings could put your measurements to within 1/100,000 +/- 1/100,000, there was no spring to the instrument, ridgid is an understatement, the click adjustment made it so there was no room for "feel" so everone who used them would get the same measurement, carbide tipped to prevent wear.........

Omaha, that's excellent marksmanship, I envy you that skill, but I bet it didn't come without a lot of work on your part.

LMG:"The more expensive binos (than the Ziess) are somewhat larger and have features I do not need. They generally do not have any better lens quality just additional features."
This poses another question about the sights, is the level of any true value? Do you really use it? Does it really make any difference if you do?

Leadpot, I have Lee Shaver mid-range soule's, and while I can't deny that I'd like to have better, they are adequate for my current purposes.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2004, 02:31:25 AM »

Methinks our freind is asking about "real world usability" here! :wink: And and added dose of "what werks fer me"!

I just went through some experiements recently on just that subject with both sights and rifles.

I currently own a Pedersoli Roller in 45-70, with the factory sights on it. A good freind of mine has an American made Sharps in 45-70 with a $900.00+ (actually he paid around 650 for them a number of years ago) set of sights.

Recently we spent most of a day at the local range together shooting our rifles at 200 yards and doing some testing. During the course of this we ended up going back to his shop and did some swapping around, and went back the the range fer more shooting. What we did was swapped sights on his rifle and mine. (this took a bit of doing, makeing a set of "bases" to fit the sights to the different guns)

After over 200 rounds through each gun, each of us shooting 50 rounds with each and then 50 rounds with each gun after changing sights around, the conclusion is...................He's a better shot than me! :oops: That's it!

Actually, he was trying to convince me that I should A: buy an American made (and very expensive Sharps) or B: buy a set of very expensive sights for my Roller! In the end what we concluded is that my shooting skills and visual accuity(sp?) will not benefit from either! :eek:

There's no question that his sights, and gun, are higher quality than mine, heavier built, finer finish, etc, but he shot his gun with my sights on it, just as well as he did with his sights. Groups were indistinguishable after the swap, from the ones before the swap. (THAT surprized the heck outta him! :lol: ) While at the same time, I couldn't shoot his gun, with his sights, any better better than I could my gun with my sight set on it. And his sights on my gun did not improve or decrease my groups at all.

What did we prove? Not much really. Shooting at 200 yards isn't much of a test. Had we room do shoot longer distances that day we might have found some major differences. But what we learned is that at 200 yards there's no practical difference....and that he's a better shot than me! :roll:

Oh, BTW, His best groups with both guns were less than than 1/8th of an inch different....with either sight set on the the guns. And yes, he got the tightest with his gun and his sights...but 1/8th" at 200 is better than my abilities can come close too!

Lead pot · « **Reply #13 on:** January 01, 2004, 06:31:43 AM »

Butler.
I had a Pedersoli Quigly and ordered that tang for it,I dont have a word I can use on this forum to tell you what my impression was for those sights.
The rifle looked good decent wood to metal fit and it shot good.But I would sooner spent that extra $200 dollars to get the Shiloh.
On the two Browning BPCR I have the factory sights on them,but the factory did'nt put all of the parts in boath of the soule sights,and the results were bad horozontal string.But after reworking them they work ok.
I think Lee uses that sight and rebuilds them,and they work ok.I layed behind a rifle with them on.
My #1 Shiloh .40-70 that rifle has the MVA 107 long range with the Hadly eye cup .I dont think of it as snob appeal.When I want a correction wind or elevation the marks on the staff and windage are correct you can rely on it.If you want a correction of a minute or seven seven you can rely on it.
The Shiloh Silhouette that is being build now will have a set of MVA sights on it.
Butler it is not as a snob thing and my intenchions is not to plug MVA they just do what I want them to do.
I learned a long time ago,you dont put a $39. dollar scope on a fine Varmint rifle and expect it to have good paralax.

As far as the Oats we used them to give the soil a rest so yal get better grids with the next corn crop :roll: fertilizer will just knock then down. :lol:

Kurt

WD45 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 02, 2004, 01:52:01 AM »

Well, I been a cipherin on this un a little.....
No doubt there is no substitution for quality. No one can argue with that.
Years ago you paid a higher price for quality and a lot of the time only some of the thing was made by machine and the rest was made by hand to get the quality piece. Now days machinery has the ability to produce that type of quality and precision but the piece of machinery costs about a trillion dollars. So what you are payng for is the machine not the sights themselves.

How much of those 900 dollar sights are hand made. No matter what the product is there is a limit to how much precision can be put into it. How much precision does it take to make a difference in peep sights between what we call quality sights. Is it worth 400 dollars in price difference and how much of that precision can actually make a difference to the average shooter. I to have shot rifles with high dollar sights and it made very little difference in the groups I shot. It was not enought difference for me to run right out and buy a set I'll tell ya.
They charge 900 dollars because people buy them even at that price.
If they didnt then either they would not make them or they would be cheaper.
This subject falls into the catagory of.... What makes a 20 dollar bill with 20 dollars

dozer · « **Reply #15 on:** January 02, 2004, 11:50:33 AM »

I'm not sure what $900.00 sights you're looking at, but I just bought a $400.00 set of AMERICAN made sights that are just as good BUT don't have the fine finish and polish. I traded looks for dollars. The front sight is better than ANY that I've seen and the rear has 40 min of windage (each side). It's on a Shiloh that I paid $1400 for. All total, I'm probably a bit over a what a good low end gun goes for, but I can get my money back any day. You won't on the bottom end guns.
Doz

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2004, 01:34:28 PM »

Dozer, I was going to leave the specific manufacturer name out, least someone misconstrues my intent of this thread, I have nothing against them at all. If it will help, model numbers: #103 @ $ 485 and #120 @ $347= $832 and we haven't added in the shipping yet. I would be REALLY suprised to find out that this is not an American Company/product.

Wd, I figure you're real clost to being right with the cost of quality machines to produce the tolerances described so far. Precision is costly and craftsmanship even more so, and when you have to pay for precise craftsmanship it get's out of reach for a lot of us.

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to concede that maybe you folks aren't snobs after all. :wink:

Timberlake · « **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2004, 02:47:42 PM »

The Butler said:

"Precision is costly and craftsmanship even more so, and when you have to pay for precise craftsmanship it get's out of reach for a lot of us."

You're right ButlerFord45, Quality does cost money!

TL

dozer · « **Reply #18 on:** January 03, 2004, 09:43:57 AM »

I did not mean to imply the high priced sights were imports, rather that there were other quality American made sights.

I do understand the quality of the high priced sights. Like a Shiloh, they are a work of art in some cases and very precise. I just got a Ron Heilman set of sights. They are half the money, BUT I think mechanically excellent. They do not have the extra time and money spent on extra fine finish. In sights, I happen to like a duller, less reflective finish, so I think I got a hell of a deal. They are every bit as good as the imports, and cost less.
Doz