Author Topic: concerned about overpenetration (Read 2035 times)

gunpilot · « **on:** May 25, 2011, 02:05:20 PM »

With Wisconsin soon to pass concealed carry, I would be using either 380 auto, 9 mm makarov, 38 spl or 38 spl+P, (all with self-defense hollowpoints). I would like enough stopping power, but do not wish to harm others beyond my proposed target. Any opinions?

S.S. · « **Reply #1 on:** May 25, 2011, 02:39:10 PM »

A lead SWCHP would be a good choice in 38 spl.
Most of the "Fancy" defensive rounds are too expensive to practice with.

Mohawk · « **Reply #2 on:** May 25, 2011, 03:23:29 PM »

I was taught long ago to not worry about overpenetration too much. Be more worried about the rounds you launch that miss. That said, I can tell you without a doubt, that the .38 LHP gives great penetration, good holes, great expansion under most circumstances, and usually stays within the target. My last deer took one dead broadside, through the shoulder muscles, and stopped just under the out-going hide. Deer ran about 30'ish yards and fell over dead. Great burglar performance. Though a burglar would have had, more than likely, more than one sent his way. And this was with the 4" velocity and a Buffalo Bore load, 964 fps(Standard Pressure, NOT Plus P). Not too many animals or criminals do well with one or multiple half-inch plus holes through vital organs. Compared to a .357 Mag Rem SJHP 158 gr with the same barrel length, the effect on the animal was identical, regarding Whitetailed Deer. I would never hesitate to EVER carry this .38 load for normal self-defense situations.

Savage · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2011, 06:00:58 PM »

Quote from: Mohawk on May 25, 2011, 03:23:29 PM

I was taught long ago to not worry about overpenetration too much. Be more worried about the rounds you launch that miss. That said, I can tell you without a doubt, that the .38 LHP gives great penetration, good holes, great expansion under most circumstances, and usually stays within the target. My last deer took one dead broadside, through the shoulder muscles, and stopped just under the out-going hide. Deer ran about 30'ish yards and fell over dead. Great burglar performance. Though a burglar would have had, more than likely, more than one sent his way. And this was with the 4" velocity and a Buffalo Bore load, 964 fps(Standard Pressure, NOT Plus P). Not too many animals or criminals do well with one or multiple half-inch plus holes through vital organs. Compared to a .357 Mag Rem SJHP 158 gr with the same barrel length, the effect on the animal was identical, regarding Whitetailed Deer. I would never hesitate to EVER carry this .38 load for normal self-defense situations.

How true!!
In a gunfight statistically, (Hate Statistics) you'll do well to hit with 30% of the time. Worry about the 70% that went astray, not the hits.
Savage

dougk · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2011, 06:38:14 PM »

Quote from: Savage on May 25, 2011, 06:00:58 PM

In a gunfight statistically, (Hate Statistics) you'll do well to hit with 30% of the time. Worry about the 70% that went astray, not the hits.
Savage

Do you know the statistic on average distance, I remember something close to 7 feet but am not sure.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2011, 09:27:49 PM »

I wouldn't worry about statistics. The bad guys don't! Point being few things ever happen the exact same way twice. Worry more about being able to get your gun into action fast and being able to hit your target. That will save you....not stats.

Savage · « **Reply #6 on:** May 26, 2011, 02:23:28 AM »

dougk,
Don't remember the average distance, I recall it being really close. One shootout I seem to recall was in an elevator. Two guns involved, lots of shots fired, VERY few hits. Don't remember the source, I think it came up in a training class put on by Tom Givens several years ago.

I wouldn't worry about statistics. The bad guys don't! Point being few things ever happen the exact same way twice. Worry more about being able to get your gun into action fast and being able to hit your target. That will save you....not stats.

Statistics are about provability and repeatability. I'm not a student of statistics, but I can't ignore them.

Savage

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** May 26, 2011, 02:41:13 AM »

I worry about over penetration . The shooting may be in my home or yard. I may not know where my family is at the time . I think the use of expanding bullets is justified because they don't over penetrate not because they kill better. I do agree that hitting the target is better than misses . I also agree that stats. mean little when the lead is flying but after , maybe in court I bet you will be exposed to stats. you never knew existed. Better to have good ansewers to the questions that will follow than to fumble for ansewers . If you do get to tote pick a gun , a carry method and a load and stick with it . Jumping around can cause a problem if the need comes up.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #8 on:** May 26, 2011, 06:28:36 AM »

I'm not saying one should totaly ignore stats but all too often they are based on suposition and not fact. Even when based on fact they can fail you in a real life situation. At best they are giving you odds. I believe that when used properly they can give you insight but that to rely solely on stats is a big mistake. What looks and sounds reasonable on paper often falls way short in real life. If you are worried about over penetration in some instances that's a very valid concern. However there are numerous hollow point rounds designed to exspand quickly and stay in the body. It's just a matter of finding the ones that feed well in your particular firearm. Then practice using the same ammo. I strongly advise a method of carry that easily conceals your firearm while allowing you quick easy access to it. It does you little good if you have to fumble or dig to reach it while being asaulted.

Savage · « **Reply #9 on:** May 26, 2011, 08:03:20 AM »

I agree that one should be prepared for as many possibilities as possible. Basing an action plan on averages is poor planning. There are extremes on both ends of the scale that give us a statistical average. I would never base my training and preparation on the "Average" use of force conditions. It's always best to plan and train for the non-statical event as well.
Savage

shot1 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 26, 2011, 08:13:50 AM »

Any of those calibers you mentioned loaded with Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dot or Winchester Silver Tip, PDX1 or Remington Golden Saber will do the job. They all expand reliably without too much over penetration. The lighter the bullet and the faster the velocity the less penetration. Shoot a box or two of what every you choose to make sure it functions 100% in your weapon. You can practice with cheaper lead of FMJ ammo. Average self defense situation is usually inside 7 feet the last I heard. Get used to what you will carry and were you will carry it to get it into action quickly and practice shooting from the draw and shoot often.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #11 on:** May 26, 2011, 08:26:46 AM »

aim for the belt buckle

any miss or overpenetraition will hit the ground if you are standing
[or hit low on those innocents beyond]

there are big arteries and other obvious vitals there
also some major bone structure that holds the target upright to break down

if you are on the ground....aim for upperchest........call the roofer in the morning

Mohawk · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2011, 01:13:57 PM »

One example is the 130 gr FMJ .38 Spl(old military load). On "paper" it should penetrate around 15 " in gelatin. I put down a wounded deer with this load. A lung shot (which was pretty effective) and a head shot. Neither bullet exited. So yes, stats are very misleading. Before our qualification was standardized whe would practice more at 3-5 yards than any other didtance per our instructor.

williamlayton · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2011, 06:38:20 PM »

This is a major concern of mine.
That is one reason I like the .45 and don't like hyper loads.
A HP at 900 fps (any round) should at least disable for a second shot.
I also am very concerned about misses which require no over penetration.
This dangerous work here boys--it don't take much for things to go dreadfully wrong---&---in a nano.
Blessings

dougk · « **Reply #14 on:** May 26, 2011, 07:12:26 PM »

Quote from: williamlayton on May 26, 2011, 06:38:20 PM

This dangerous work here boys--it don't take much for things to go dreadfully wrong---&---in a nano.
Blessings

Great point, I remember (I might be off) that a violent action is less than 4 seconds.

williamlayton · « **Reply #15 on:** May 27, 2011, 02:27:53 PM »

A Murphy's Law is much quicker.
Blessings

trotterlg · « **Reply #16 on:** May 27, 2011, 03:29:54 PM »

If you are really worried about it just buy a Judge and carry it full of #7 410's. Larry

gunpilot · « **Reply #17 on:** May 27, 2011, 05:54:11 PM »

Thanks for the info. I will probably use the 9mm Makarov or 380 auto with personal defense ammo like hornady xtp or federal Hi Shok.

gunpilot · « **Reply #18 on:** May 27, 2011, 05:58:01 PM »

I also have a lot of Silver Bear 9mm Makarov 94 gr bimetal HP which looks like it might be a good cartridge.

bubbinator · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2011, 06:54:51 PM »

RE Mohawk's post on the military 130gr. FMJ 38 Spec. round-It is a very poor penetrator due the low velocity. I worked a shooting once that used this round in a room size area. The victim was hit in the arm. When the paramedics began treating the victim they pulled the cloth out of the wound in the upper arm of the woman and out popped the 130gr bullet! It didn't even penetrate the shirt sleeve, just stuffed it into the wound. I had access to lots of it while in th AF and it was junk as far as a defensive round.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** May 31, 2011, 02:24:26 AM »

I have read several times that 130 ball round was used with the alum mod 12 S&W. It was an effort to save weight on choppers and other aircraft. Results from airmen who used it in the field were it was all but useless. One article many crewmen "found" other handguns to carry in its place. It and the gun must have been bad as the guns cut up and ammo not used. Guess with all those componets laying around it had to be duped on the market to make up for losses.

Mohawk · « **Reply #21 on:** May 31, 2011, 01:19:34 PM »

I think the AF carried the 130 gr .38 ball round in their Model 15's for some time. Bubbinator may know a better time line on that. Not a bad practice ammo though as it was cheaper than LRN at the time. IIRC, on that deer the lung shot at least collapsed the lungs(I could hear it) and it quit kicking enough to get a head shot. But yes, the penetration was very poor. I believe the standard velocity was 800 fps in a 4 "?

Mikey · « **Reply #22 on:** May 31, 2011, 03:08:01 PM »

The Army used that stuff as well. I believe it was mil-spec for the 38 Spl as I recall seeing it on a inventory. Some CID carried Colt snubnose revolvers and that load was issue. I qualifed with a 38 snubnose (Colt Detective Spl) and that ammo. It was free to practice with and you could have all the ammo and range time you wanted - and people wonder why I liked the Army.... Anyhow, I recently picked up a bunch of Remington 130s for the 38 just to shoot in the M92, and Fiocchi makes a 158 gn fmj-rn that should be a better penetrator for those who need it.

I wonder what the true diameter of these bullets are..are they 357, 358? 356? Now I s'pose I'll have to go pull a few and measure them.. I'll let you know..

Airsporter · « **Reply #23 on:** June 01, 2011, 01:55:49 PM »

While I understand the concerns expressed here, I believe 'overpenetration' is a much overrated issue. That is, more a problem in theory than in fact. I trust in the odds - that the chance that a misplaced round will overpenetrate, and hit an innocent person is probably more remote than a lightening strike.

I use exactly what the locals gendarmes use for my primary house/carry guns (Federal 9mm 124gr HST+P). With the 380, 9mm Mak, and 38 Spec (non+P) 'underpenetration' is often more of a concern.

So, I use Buffalo Bore in my .380 (probably too hot for the LCP, but . . .

) and Hornady JHPs in my 9mm Mak and 38 Spec, but rely primarily on my 9mm+P guns and the 380 as a backup. Plan to try the Buffalo Bore for my 9mm Mak (CZ82) too.