Author Topic: Does it qualify for hunter class? (Read 1159 times)

Jason · « **on:** May 04, 2004, 06:09:20 PM »

I have a CZ 452 Varmint with a Simmons 1022T scope on it that I was planning to shoot in hunter class in the smallbore silhouette match at the Machias range a couple weeks ago. I asked Elgin, the guy running the shoot, if it qualified for hunter class because I didn't want to break any rules. We went through the regs together. It qualified for the weight restriction (it's 7lbs 13.6oz total unloaded weight), has a tapered barrel (.981" at the receiver down to .686" at the muzzle), and is a regularly offered factory gun. The point that made us unsure is the part that said "bull or varmint barrels are not permitted." That section is in the high power regs, of course, and a bull or varmint barrel in a centerfire like my Savage 12FVSS is a lot bigger (1.350" down to .810") than the barrel on the 452 Varmint. If the gun wasn't named "Varmint" I'm not sure we would have even had the doubts, and Elgin said that he didn't know for sure if it would be allowed or not. I made the judgement call to not shoot it until I could be sure, as I'm not one to push the rules. I called up the NRA silhouette contact number, and the nice gentleman there said that they hadn't decided on a hard max diameter for hunter class because their "standard" model 700 Rem rifle was different on every single barrel they measured. Now I'm turning to you guys. What do you think? Does it qualify or not?

While I'm asking, what all can be done to a factory rifle and still have it qualify for hunter class? I've heard everything from "only trigger adjustment" to "anything you want as long as it still looks mostly like it did from the factory and conforms to the NRA regs" from the few people that I've asked.

genphideaux · « **Reply #1 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:11:31 AM »

Jason,

Per the rules that little word varmit is the only thing keeping your rifle out of the hunter class. Have had this disscussion over the cooper LVT, V standing for varmit, moved it into the standard class. Call Mike Conners who is the NRA silo director and give him an ear full.

As far as mods to the hunter class look like a hunter (tapered barrel,hunter stock no thumb thru) trigger 2lb. or more, and weight less than 8 and a half lb.

oh and not say bull or varmit on the gun.
Good luck, and welcome to mister toads wild spoket ride.

Dawg

Jason · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:41:11 AM »

I'm not really interested in trying to change the rule. I just want to know if this gun qualifies. I'm pretty sure that is who I talked to at the NRA who said that they couldn't define a hard number for max barrel diameter because every Remington they measured was different, sometimes amazingly different.

ajj · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2004, 03:00:23 AM »

Just as a practical matter I don't think the average match director would quibble about the name of the rifle. The barrel tapers. That's the important thing. There are some hunters around with VERY minimal taper. I don't think your rifle violates either the spirit or the letter of the rules as I understand them.

yankee · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2004, 03:12:09 AM »

J---The rule says "Bull or varmint barrels are not permitted" So It looks like it is a standard class gun. Now they have the rules written so that my old 581 remington that has a straight barrel that measures .620 from start to finish is not tapered so that would also be a standard class gun. Gee it has been a hunter gun for the past 25 years and it's now changed.

Who knows??

nomad · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2004, 04:17:40 AM »

Jason,

You should have come down to PeEll and shot with us. Keith had to add a 5th relay (something that probably won't get done next year) and there was room for you.

Contact me offlist at e27122002@yahoo.com and I'll try to help with the rules.

longgun · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2004, 10:58:36 AM »

Chad, I don't get to town very often living as far out in the sticks like I do, and I admit that I don't get out much. And you guys are better informed than me for sure. But I thought that the rules changes for hunter allowed for any size tapered barrel that was not over 26" long and made the weight limit, was legal. Is this incorrect. But if this is so, then whatever "name" the hunter gun has is still legal if it measures up. Have the rules changed again? Don

yankee · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:16:06 PM »

Don---Now you see the delema. The rule says a tapered barrel is OK and a varmint barrel is not. The rifle has a tapered barrel so it is OK for hunter but the manufacturer says it is a varmint rifle which is not OK for hunter.
After every match a report is sent in to the NRA. One of the questions on the report asks if any rules need clarification. This would be a good question to ask. And see if we get an answer. I will add this question in a couple weeks after my match on my match report.
A second Idea is to copy the original post and send to Greg Connor at the NRA silhouette department. Put this question on the bottom with a couple boxes for an X. Is this a hunter or is this a standard rifle??. Send a self addressed stamped return envelope so they can send it back to you. What ever the answer, you will then have it in writing. Untill the rule is changed again. The NRA silhouette dept also has e-mail just look on the web site. C

CB · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:47:41 PM »

Izshmash Biathalon Basic: cheap, accurate, makes weight for sporter and must be shot as Standard gun as per Conners, reason? barrel is .745 at breach and .745 at muzzle! therefore a BULL barrel. Has no taper

MSP Ret · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2004, 03:10:45 PM »

Although I don't shoot this discipline I have had some experience with verbiage. As I understand it the rules prohibit "Bull or varmit barrels" from the hunter class. Sounds to me you are good to go. Your gun is described as a varmit rifle, which has to do with what it may have been designed to shoot. This part is very important to the validation of your rifle in the hunter calss, the word varmit is descriptive of the gun, not the barrel, in fact the barrel meets established and published requirements to be included in the hunter class. You gun was theoretically designed to shoot varmits, therefore to hunt, ergo it is a hunting gun and as I said has a barrel that meets all established criteria. In summation (your Honor) since it meets all established criteria AND is a hunting gun, it should be allowed in the hunter class. Do not confuse a description of the gun with the type of barrel, they are two separate and distinct things and each will stand on its own. It appears the entire question of it's eligibility in the hunter class revolves around the mistaken idea that the name of a gun has to do with what type of barrel is on the gun, the type of barrel must be determined by looking at the BARREL, not the guns name, otherwise what would stop anyone from taking an action from a field model Remington 700 and fitting it with a non-conforming barrel and demanding that it be allowed to be shot in the hunter class....<><.... :grin:

drover · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2004, 04:37:47 PM »

It is a legal hunter rifle, I contacted Greg Conners, NRA silhouette director about this same rifle in July of 2002. The next paragraph contains a copy of my letter to him and his response.

I retrieved your voice mail message from this morning and I apologize for not getting back to you on this e-mail. Greg was out of town for the Pistol Silhouette nationals and then was back in town for just a couple of days but did get a chance to quickly review your emails. It appears that I goofed and just never sent the response back out to you -- very sorry. But, Greg's review of the material you sent was that this rifle appears to meet the requirements of the new silhouette rules. I would be happy to send you a rule book and updates for 2002 if you would like (please reply back with a mailing address).
Again my apologies for the delay in responding.
Pam Silliman
Program Asst.
Silhouette Dept.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 3:19 PM
To: Silhouette
Subject: hunter rifle legality

Greg,

I'm sorry to bother you with this question but we are attempting to reach a decision on the legality of a rifle to qualify for smallbore hunter silhouette.

The rifle in question is a CZ 452 Varmint. It does have a hunter style stock although the forearm is slightly flattened on the bottom it does not have a beavertail or semi-beavertail forearm. It is just a straight tapered forearm on the sides.

The barrel is 22 inches long and tapered in what I can best describe as a heavy sporter contour. It measures 1.00 inch at the chamber end and tapers to .685 inches at the muzzle, it is a straight taper.

In comparison my Anschutz 1710 sporter measures .680 at 22 inches from the chamber. An NS 522 which is a legal hunter rifle measures .695 at the muzzle and a Marlin 39A lever rifle measures .750 at 22 inches from the chamber.

Under the 2002 rules it would appear that the CZ Varmint shoud be a legal smallbore hunter rifle as long as it meets the other criteria.

Would you please give me an opinion on the legality of it. We have a person who wants to use one in the state championship and would like to clear this up before it becomes an issue. I would prefer an e-mail reply so I can have a hard copy of your opinion in case there are any questions.

Thanks for your time - hope to see you soon.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #11 on:** May 06, 2004, 10:24:57 AM »

Drover, Thanks for the pertinent information. Right on point. "Your Honor, I rest my case."....<><.... :grin: