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Author Topic: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?  (Read 4031 times)

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Offline spinafish

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2011, 03:58:40 PM »
The removeable choke's only purpose is to stop the spinning of the shot charge as it leaves the barrel.  A barrel that short has to be rifled to be legal and the spinning of the wad and shot charge would not help the patterns from the .410 in the least bit.  The spinning effect from the rifling is what makes the Judge pistol such a devastating self defense gun at very close range w/410 shells.
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Offline cpileri

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2011, 02:59:01 AM »
so when using 410bore cartridges with shot loads, put the choke in?
C-
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Offline spinafish

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2011, 01:14:48 PM »
yes sir..remove when firing any solid projectile...410 slug or .45LC...
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Offline cpileri

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2011, 02:57:34 PM »
OK. Got personal replies from guys who have done it:
All to a person said that 10gr unique (some as low as 8gr) plus wadding and a 250gr projectile works well as a FIREFORMING load!!!
Heck, i was going to use that as my load, period.  Maybe I am selling myself short?

Anyway, I will probably try to fireform the brass, which is annealed already, with just powder and dacron packed in.  if that doesnt work; I may use a lead ball or other projectile to help fireform- starting light and working up.

Then, will start with a 70%capacity trailboss load.

If you never hear form me again... check the local obits, I guess.

(bad joke. sorry, couldnt help it)

C-

p.s. dont worry, believe it or not I have a rig set up to allow me to pull the trigger with a string from behind a tree.  I used to check those old milsurp Turkish Mausers that way. 
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Offline cpileri

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2011, 01:27:45 PM »
SO I am making progress.
I used the 10gr Unique, plus dacron filler, plus a 148grain .357 projectile which fits loosly in the unformed casemouth; and wax rto hold it all down.  Firing resulted in not much more than a "pop" and dacron wafting down out of the air.  No, i didnt bother to check for accuracy of a 357 slug in a 452 bore! (fired into a bullet-arresting tube, like a clearing barrel)

The resulting cases are "semi-fireformed", as in they appear unchanged from their 9.3x74R dimensions from the rim/base and up the first 1/3 of the case; then the case is blown out to 45LC chamber sized for the rest of the cartridge length.  Extraction was kinda sticky the first time (no case lube used).

Folks who have done so have said that it takes either more power in the load, or several shootings to fully fireform the case.  I am not going to try more power, as the action is only rated to 45LC pressures and I dont want to push it.  I will continue to use my "plinker" loads and fireform that way. (I am also looking to purchase someones already fireformed loads, for whomever may be interested in selling.)

I'll try to post a picture later- the case is like a reverse-shouldered cartridge: wider after the shoulder and at the case mouth than at the base.

Next loads will be with "plinker" .452 LSWC projectiles.

C-


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Offline cpileri

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2011, 01:55:50 PM »
Well, i have been happily fireforming away here.  I've got 17 cases "almost" fireformed (3 I am saving for making regular 410bore formed cases).

I hope this info is at least interesting for someone.  All standard caveats taken to heart, please!

I use the 10gr Unique plus wad/dacron and 200-205gr #7 shot for the initial forming.  Recoil is pathetically light, and noise is a pop.  I dont dare check for pattern although at ~20yds it made a nice big circle in the dirt.  I have no idea of pattern density... yet.  But this load usually gets the case 'mostly' fireformed, that is, with the casemouth ready to accept a 44 or 45cal projectile. If not another firing with this load will.

Once the casemouth will take a bullet, I load with 12.5gr of trail Boss and a .452 lead 255gr SWC with no gas check. SOmetimes, I need to go down to 44-cal for one firing.  This load will get the case 90% fireformed, which means, all but the length of case nearest the base is expanded to chamber dimensions.  Again, the recoil is minimal and noise is a slightly louder pop.  I ahev tried up to 17.7gr Trail Boss, which is 70% of the case volume. But it fares no better in fireforming.  So until I am ready to work up a "working" load, I will stay with 12.5grTB. 

I did put a nice hole in one of those Duraseal swinging targets at 25yds with this load.  But I have nto tested for accuracy nor chronographed anything yet.  I ahve just stuck to the fireforming phase of cartridge development.  Also, since I found little info on making this 45 Xtrra Xtra Looong Colt round, and I am developing it for my boy (yeah, sure- OK, FINE: I am having a blast myself! I admit it!) ; he decided it should be named the "Four-Hundred and Fifty Tyson!" (name changed to protect his anonymity- but it is named after him).  (*)

If I chronograph these and they are in the 900fps range, then i will just tweak a bit for accuracy.  Otherwise, that velocity is my target.  I will keep posting as I get info.

Thanks to all who helped me safely make happen this very fun project.


(*) I know it already has a name, but he doesn't know that and he thinks it is his 'special cartridge'.  I can live with that.


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Offline billy_56081

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2011, 02:08:37 PM »
I'd try some trailboss. Very bulky case filling powder.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2011, 02:53:36 PM »
The 70% thing with TB is for reduced loads; you can fill up to the bullet base (no compression) and still have a low pressure 'soft' load.
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Offline cpileri

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2011, 03:27:01 PM »
Sir!
I was wondering about that actually.  Filling the case all the way (~27gr Trail Boss) is totally uncharted in my google searching.  Even with a 255gr projectile, I am not sure the pressure is within 45LC specs. 
Sure the case volume is BIG, bigger than the 45-70.  but 27grTB is a lot of powder- much more than i can find anyone has used in this case.

I will google-fu it in a sec and see if imissed somehting.  Sir, Mr. gcrank1, have you any intel on filling a 450 Mongo case to capacity with Trail Boss?  and using a 255gr projectile?  I'd sure appreciate any info you have.

That load, if safely within 14K psi, or SB1 receiver specs,  would both set my max velocity AND probably fireform me all in one shot.

Thanks,
C-
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2011, 04:58:52 PM »
We do have a lack of data on the TB. I really should have said,"as I understand it...you can, etc."
As with all loads you need to start out low and work up; you already know what that 70% load is doing. Are you willing to test at 75%, or 80%?
I did so with 25-20, 32-20, 45C, 38-55 and recently 45-70. My experience is that the 70% is very mild. In all calibers above I ended up with the full to base of bullet, no compression loads and they were nice cast bullet loads, and all on the 'soft' side compared to other smokeless powder loads that I have been using (and I am known for shooting mild end loads anyway).. Your milage may vary. For your SB-1 I would remember that the old pre-SB-1 designation actions were chambered for 44Mag and 45-70 (level I loads).
If I am wrong about this, and the TB 70% load density is intended to be the max, someone please correct me!
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2011, 06:19:44 PM »
Read the instructions again, the case filled to the base of a seated bullet is the max load, 70% of that is the start load, doesn't matter how big the case is. Look at the TB data for the 45-120 Sharps on Hodgdon's website, 29gr under a 350gr cast bullet runs just 20.5kcup, that case holds ~120gr water. As gcrank1 said, the SB1 frame is good for 44mag pressure which runs 40kcup or 36kpsi.

Tim

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
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Offline cpileri

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2011, 06:41:41 AM »
Just a quick update:
I found a load that shoots to POA at 25yds.
Fireformed case (from 9.3x74R brass)
22-23gr trailboss (settled on 22.5 for good measure)
255gr Lead SWC .452 seated to crimp groove
(usually, no crimp needed to hold it in place)

Like I said, shoots to POA (see thread on how I 'fixed' my front sight, here:
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,236361.msg1099335480.html#msg1099335480 ), no obvious pressure signs, extraction is easy (if the case is fully fireformed), and no unburned powder in the bore.

I will chronograph these at some point, and see how they do at longer ranges as well.

Just thought someone might like to know.

C-

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that we received it from them,
and that without them
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Offline cpileri

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Re: load really loooooong 45 LC loads?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2011, 02:24:04 AM »
BTW: here's a close load to the one I settled on, which gave me much reassurance that this load was at a safe pressure.

.458 Winchester Magnum (Hodgdon Data Maximum Loads) Reloading Data Printable Version
 
Warning! Notes: case: Winchester; barrel length: 24"; twist: 1:14"; trim length: 2.490"; primer: CCI 250; bullet diam.: .458" (except where otherwise specified in remarks); NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
 
Wt.        Bullet Powder      Manufacturer         Powder Charge           Velocity (FPS)
300          MEI LFP             MR Trail Boss                 23.0                         1,282
Remarks: COL: 2.885"; 13,200 cup
 
I am using a lighter bullet, longer case (2.84"), and LR primer.  So I guesstimate (risk assumed) that this is well within the operating pressures of my original 14K psi (convert psi to cup) and within spec of a receiver that is rated to 44 Magnum levels.

C-
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"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther
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