Author Topic: Does the .500 handi have the same problem as the revolvers? (Read 1311 times)

oic0 · « **on:** June 21, 2011, 05:49:48 AM »

All of the loads I see listed are 20% bellow SAAMI. I have heard this is because the revolvers get sticky cases at full pressure. Do the handis have the same issue? or are we all loading light to avoid a non existent problem?

reclusej · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2011, 05:57:12 AM »

Better to be safe then sorry! reclusej

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #2 on:** June 21, 2011, 07:08:47 AM »

If S&W will figure how they are going to make the pistol and call it good the numbers will probably start going back up.Smith keeps changeing things and not telling the ammo makers which has caused some problems in the past with the 460 and 500

45-70.gov · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2011, 07:43:36 AM »

maybe you should look at a 458 win mag of some sort

petemi · « **Reply #4 on:** June 21, 2011, 07:52:14 AM »

I'm shoolting Rem 385 gr. Core Lokts out of nickle plated brass at 1870 fps. with no problems.

Pete

oic0 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 21, 2011, 08:15:38 AM »

I've heard people saying the full power loads in the pistols often require a dowel rod and a hammer to remove from the cylinder. Hence the 50k psi load data in the manuals

Was just wondering if that same limit should apply to the rifle? Anyone load any ~60,000psi rounds and check extraction?

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I'm shoolting Rem 385 gr. Core Lokts out of nickle plated brass at 1870 fps. with no problems.

Hogdon says 42.5 H110 or 41 lilgun behind a 385 Rem HP for 1800-1850 fps from the handgun (not rifle).

manatee1947 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 21, 2011, 05:39:57 PM »

I wonder why someone would try to load to a specific pressure level? If you need more power, get a bigger gun, a 577 or 50 BMG. A multitude of good, accurate loads that will do anything the cartridge was designed for fall well below 60K psi, and it is not a 300 yard gun regardless. Within 100-150 yards it should bring down just about anything in north america.

zoot686 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 21, 2011, 05:57:11 PM »

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If you need more power, get a bigger gun, a 577 or 50 BMG.

AMEN!

And I'd also add that the highest pressure, or fastest loads aren't neccessarilly the most accurate, and before one can put down a deer, one must be able to hit it.

I prefer loading down myself.
Heck, folks hunt deer with the .45 Long colt, in the woods, there's no reason why my "light" .45/70 loads at 1200 fps with a 300 grain hollowpoint can't do everything and more than their maxxed out .45 long colt or even .44 magnum loads can, and if there is, I'm fairly certain the deer won't grumble about it too much.

mechanic · « **Reply #8 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:50:58 PM »

In a long ago time I knew a fellow who routinely killed deer with a 22 Ruger pistol. I wouldn't try it, because it's illegal, and I'm not that good a shot with a pistol, but it can be done. Most places I hunt, a 357 is plenty, and my 280 is extra insurance.

Heck a 50 wouldn't even have to expand much on a white tail. He'd bleed out in no time....

Ben

Darreld Walton · « **Reply #9 on:** June 22, 2011, 02:21:12 AM »

To respond to the original query, no, I've not had any extraction problems from my little rifle. I shoot many more reduced loads for several reasons, including they're more economical, easier on my crusty ol' body, and give me more trigger time, which equals more fun.
Full-on anti-armor type loads haven't given extraction issues, they shoot well, and will shoot clear through several of any species I expect to have in front of it, I just don't need that kind of performance all the time.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #10 on:** June 22, 2011, 04:51:33 AM »

My concern with shooting max. pressure with the 500 S&W would be the lockup of my rifle. I would suspect after a bit you would loosen up the gun and then it would be time to learn about shims, pivots, latch shelfs etc.

BB

oic0 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 22, 2011, 05:25:41 AM »

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Just get a bigger gun

Thats not how I look at it. This gun is plenty. I look at it as buying a sports car and finding a wooden block under the gas pedal. Sure, 90% of the time you wont be mashing it to the floor anyway but you will darn sure wonder why that block is there and why you shouldn't.

Also, if the manual "max" loads are really max they require the extra caution you give to loads at max. If the SAAMI max is the real max though, then the "max" is halfway between the start load and the real max (most powders start load is 40kpsi). Would mean there is still a good bit of safety margin even at the manual max.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 22, 2011, 05:31:49 AM »

Then we will have to start wondering about where the real 'Mad Max' is............

keith44 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 22, 2011, 07:27:14 AM »

Remember we hand loaders are not given access to "all" the same powders that ammunition companies have at their disposal, and at times they have their powders blended in large quantities just for their high end ammo. (to get a certain pressure curve, or whatever) We as hand loaders are not so lucky. If a manual lists a max load it's because ANY more powder showed dangers pressure signs on the pressure tests. If you want the bullet to go faster change bullet weight or change powders, DO NOT JUST DUMP MORE POWDER IN!! The reloading manuals list a true max load for each combination.

guns-o-fun · « **Reply #14 on:** June 23, 2011, 02:29:51 AM »

As noted above - it's a Handi - basically a rifle set up like a break-open shotgun. It is perfectly fine at typical pressures, but if you hotrod it too much, the action is going to loosen up. Then, extraction will be the least of your worries.

oic0 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 23, 2011, 05:53:50 AM »

So NEF probably built it to handle the common loads but not SAAMI spec for long term? I'm asking, not being sarcastic. I am not familiar with NEF or their practices. I have heard of manufacturers making guns for a cartridge that can't really handle the cartridge's full specs for any amount of time. Usually light weigh pistols.

For the record, I haven't even loaded to the manual's max. Just trying to learn about my gun.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 23, 2011, 06:11:27 AM »

It is doubtful that H&R (NEF is long 'gone') has done a comprehensive test fire with full factory loads to X number of rounds to 'duplicate' the effects long term of expected life of the arm.
Engineering will have said it, as built, is supposed to meet/exceed the SAAMI spec, and some testing was most likely done. Will it hold up? Have any products had recalls? Have any H&Rs been dropped from the line for 'issues'? Just how many rounds to they anticipate the owner of one of these to shoot anyway?, not too many, I expect.
My 12ga. OverKill kicks like a mule, and many H&Rs have lasted in that chambering. That is not an SB-2, or high pressure CF cartridge so it doesnt mean anything as a comparison to the 500 except that a heavy recoiling piece can hang together, but a high pressure one may not. I know I could be happy with the 500 performance at well less than full factory loads.
If you want a single shot that will hold together with high intensity chamberings, and has the record to prove it, you might better consider a Ruger No.1

guns-o-fun · « **Reply #17 on:** June 23, 2011, 07:51:36 AM »

Yes, and moderate loads in the 500 are plenty for any game most people are likely to come across - and much more pleasant to shoot, and oftern, more accurate than full-house loads.

keith44 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 23, 2011, 09:31:23 PM »

The Handi-Rifles I have experience with do quite well with factory loaded ammo, and any sane reload one might care to assemble. The .500 S&W was (if I remember correctly) designed with an operating pressure of 60,000 c.u.p. The .243, .270, and 30'06 all operate at a max pressure of 52,000. The .458 Win Mag operates at 53,000 c.u.p. and so does the .375 H&H Magnum. All this tells me that the .500 may just be too much for our Handi Rifles

gr8ful · « **Reply #19 on:** June 23, 2011, 11:42:32 PM »

Worst I can say for .500 S&W Handi is RECOIL, Had trouble with mounting optics because it ate scope mounts (factory aluminium H&R), broke a couple of mounting screws, and ruined two bushnell 3200 elite scopes. Went back to the irons, and no problem other than after about a 10 round string flinch sets in and its time for a rest. First 3 usually group pretty close together though and at 50 yards it will kill the H-E double hockey sticks out of a deer.

Oh forgot to add was shooting Hornady 350 and 500 grain factory loads with no pressure signs (flattened primers or sticky extraction).

gcrank1 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 24, 2011, 06:13:14 AM »

Good commentary guys!
I might add that ,IMHO, by the time you do see 'pressure signs' like seriously flattened primers and/or hard extraction you have probably well exceeded the pressures you want to be at. I base this on reports from people I respect and trust who have much better testing equipment and experience testing just such stuff than I do. This is why all reloading manuals say to start low and work up for your particular firearm. This is also why you will often see quite a range of variance in top loads between manuals.

olafhardtB · « **Reply #21 on:** July 04, 2011, 04:44:48 AM »

I have never fired factory loads from my 500 handy. I was thinking about something to launch chunks of lead at moderate speeds. I wanted to do some fooling around but I was worried about the pressures that a shotgun could stand. When I discovered the 500s&w handy I knewl it was the toy of my dreams. It has strength to spare. My cat sneeze loads shoot right through three gallon jugs of water which is all I had. They didn't expand big deal. And if I doubled charged a case no blown up gun. For me the best feature of this outfit is its safety for just fooling around Thens there is the fact that with a lady like POP it will make a half inch hole through a pig. What's not to like?

keith44 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 04, 2011, 06:00:35 AM »

your cat sneezes harder than mine does